A hard to very hard sequel to "The Pirate Invasion".

Download it now - if you dare!

Thanks to Rose for testing.

Jeez, brell....

How fast did you create that one..???

And: Hard to very hard ???  
I think it deserves a new category beyond hard, something like "unbelievably terrifyingly tough"....
8-)   :o    ::)

aquaMat wrote on 26.09.2007 at 18:21:50:

Jeez, brell.... How fast did you create that one..??? And: Hard to very hard ???   I think it deserves a new category beyond hard, something like "unbelievably terrifyingly tough".... 8-)   :o    ::)

Yes!!!!  But fun!
:o :-X :-/ :'(

Ehm.. yes, this Mansion is The most Difficult that I played. But the Mansion self is a little stupid ( sorry ) because its very Hard to play it, and when the Mansion became a little easier its the Mansion better.
Thanks

Mikee

Here's my comments from what I've heard about it (I haven't finish TPI yet so I haven't played this one!)

Make a easier version!!!

Hey!  This mansion IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD TO VERY HARD.  And Wingy:  What gives you the right to comment on something you haven't seen or tried?

aquaMat wrote on 26.09.2007 at 18:21:50:

Jeez, brell.... How fast did you create that one..??? And: Hard to very hard ???   I think it deserves a new category beyond hard, something like "unbelievably terrifyingly tough".... 8-)   :o    ::)

First, I built this mansion while TPI was being beta tested, so it was not made in any hurry.

Second, there is nothing in this mansion that cannot be seen in other mansions.

Whatever you say. Sorry if I made you angry. :-[

Brell - I really like your new mansion - didn't find it soooooo terribly hard, just challenging.  It made me pay closer attention to everything in order to figure it out.  I've played it through - lots of deaths and restarts, of course - but still I'm short on secrets, so I'll keep going, section by section until I get it.  This is the sort of mansion I like - mostly linear but with plenty of challenge and back & forthing to keep it quite interesting!

Thanks - more, please!

suzanne

PS - meanwhile, I have NOT, yet, figured out TPI, so I keep messing around with that... will continue, though!

brell wrote on 27.09.2007 at 05:13:29:

aquaMat wrote on 26.09.2007 at 18:21:50: Jeez, brell.... How fast did you create that one..??? And: Hard to very hard ???   I think it deserves a new category beyond hard, something like "unbelievably terrifyingly tough".... 8-)   :o    ::) First, I built this mansion while TPI was being beta tested, so it was not made in any hurry. Second, there is nothing in this mansion that cannot be seen in other mansions.

Brell, both of my above comments were meant as compliments, not criticism !!

Thanks aquaMat.  Actually, no offense taken  :)

But I wanted to clarify these points, expecially after Wingy's comment.

Ouch, finished aRfRG at last! Got 88% of secrets, and I forgot how many dollars (I'll need to replay the Red section anyway because there is still a very obvious closed door there  :-?).

You little [smiley=evil.gif] you. Was the Purple section more difficult than the others or is it just because that's the one I started with?

(Except for the first zapper beam room - the first jump up actually.)

[smiley=beer.gif]

Also, in Room 13901: once you take all the money, how are you supposed to get away from above the doors? I tried taking the half-ladder but Jack just fell down to the ground and died  :(

Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 03:16:09:

Ouch, finished aRfRG at last! Got 88% of secrets, and I forgot how many dollars (I'll need to replay the Red section anyway because there is still a very obvious closed door there  :-?).

Which door is that?


Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 03:16:09:

You little [smiley=evil.gif] you. Was the Purple section more difficult than the others or is it just because that's the one I started with?

Hopefully they are all alike but I expect that the purple one feels harder if you start there with only 6 lives and only getting silver coins.


Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 03:16:09:

(Except for the first zapper beam room - the first jump up actually.) [smiley=beer.gif]

I guess you mean the first zapper room in the blue section?


Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 03:16:09:

Also, in Room 13901: once you take all the money, how are you supposed to get away from above the doors? I tried taking the half-ladder but Jack just fell down to the ground and died  :(

Hehe.  Yes this is a tricky one - until you spot how EASY it actually is  ;D

Quote:

Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 03:16:09: Also, in Room 13901: once you take all the money, how are you supposed to get away from above the doors? I tried taking the half-ladder but Jack just fell down to the ground and died  :( Hehe.  Yes this is a tricky one - until you spot how EASY it actually is  ;D

:-X :) this is the beauti with the game. It sometimes seems so difficult but then it is easy!

brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 04:33:59:

Which door is that?

I can't remember the room number. It is a red door on the bottom left of a room, maybe the one you pop in after the fake ladder puzzle.


brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 04:33:59:

Hopefully they are all alike but I expect that the purple one feels harder if you start there with only 6 lives and only getting silver coins.

The disadvantage of being an order freak: you want to start with the silver coins and go up all the way to backpacks instead of doing it the sensible, I mean the other way round  ::)


brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 04:33:59:

I guess you mean the first zapper room in the blue section?

Indeed, that's the one. I think the first ladder jump (avoiding the lowest horizontal beam) is a killer. First time I played I lost all my Jacks there, next time I passed unscathed on the first try! You certainly learn to become very cautious in this mansion  :D


brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 04:33:59:

Hehe.  Yes this is a tricky one - until you spot how EASY it actually is  ;D

I knew there was a trick. Good thing I had saved just before  ;)

rose wrote on 30.09.2007 at 13:23:22:

:-X :) this is the beauty with the game. It sometimes seems so difficult but then it is easy!

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's actually easy :P

Easy ?????    :o   :o   ::)

This mother... is the hardest mansion of all times, including many nasty surprise deaths, unavoidable falls and creature attacks.

I have yet to master a single of the available paths.....   8-)

aquaMat wrote on 30.09.2007 at 17:26:41:

I have yet to master a single of the available paths.....   8-)

In my experience, the gold coins path was a bit easier. Then again, I had actually finished the purple one before ::)

Oh really ??

I had the feeling the purple path was indeed the hardest ?!
There I always died in the first couple of rooms.   8-)

BTW, in my humble opinion, I really feel there are a few too many "sudden (cheap?) deaths" in ARFRG for an "officially released" mansion. When I consider what I always had to remove in my mansions before release.....  I wouldn't have gotten away with some of those things in there.....   :-/   :)

I mention that now, 'cause I just played the purple path again (or: tried to) and felt that it's especially "mean" there (just take the hi-speed platform jump in the second room of the purple path as an example).

I always felt I was quite a skilled player..... but there I certainly begin to doubt my abilities...   :D ;)

Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 17:08:37:

brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 04:33:59: Which door is that? I can't remember the room number. It is a red door on the bottom left of a room, maybe the one you pop in after the fake ladder puzzle.

OK.  Since you've finished the red section without opening that door you know it is not needed to get through but you miss a bit of treasure.

aquaMat wrote on 30.09.2007 at 20:51:51:

Oh really ?? This mother... is the hardest mansion of all times, including many nasty surprise deaths, unavoidable falls and creature attacks. BTW, in my humble opinion, I really feel there are a few too many "sudden (cheap?) deaths" in ARFRG for an "officially released" mansion. When I consider what I always had to remove in my mansions before release.....  I wouldn't have gotten away with some of those things in there.....   :-/   :) I mention that now, 'cause I just played the purple path again (or: tried to) and felt that it's especially "mean" there (just take the hi-speed platform jump in the second room of the purple path as an example). I always felt I was quite a skilled player..... but there I certainly begin to doubt my abilities...   :D ;)

Please give examples of:

1. Nasty surprise deaths
2. Unavoidable falls leading to death
3. Creature attacks which lead to unavoidable deaths
4. Sudden cheap deaths

The high speed platform jump is not invented by me.  It has been around since Freddy's MM&M at least.

I do not, any more that other mansion builders, get away with Jack-stucks, half Jack-stucks, cheap deaths or anything like that.  To my best knowledge there are no such things in Arfrg.  My tester reported very few which were all fixed.  So if there are still any JS, HJS, cd etc. around I would certainly like to know about them so I can fix them.

brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 20:58:53:

OK.  Since you've finished the red section without opening that door you know it is not needed to get through but you miss a bit of treasure.

I know that, I just feel so silly to have missed it because it is not even remotely hidden!
Or maybe you should add a BBB to tell Jack not to overlook that door, and a few arrows poining to it as well  ;)

Ah, and sometimes I feel that the poles are not quite high enough, and Jack might inadvertently jump above them (and fall to his doom). Is this intentional?

aquaMat wrote on 30.09.2007 at 20:51:51:

I had the feeling the purple path was indeed the hardest ?!

I meant that *any* path is likely to look easy when played after the purple one ;D

Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 22:02:01:

Ah, and sometimes I feel that the poles are not quite high enough, and Jack might inadvertently jump above them (and fall to his doom). Is this intentional?

No, it's not.  Examples, please!

Well, in the very first room for instance, if you jump from too close to the pole and as far as you can. And in the purple section: when you succeed with the high-speed jump and then you wish to jump back via the pole, then you shouldn't jump from too close to the left edge.

There may be other examples but then, either I forgot or I didn't miss the pole (could it be that there is one in the Red section?)

Tonight I made my first visits to this resort. Resort? Feels like a training camp! ;)

An interesting, but very hard mansion. Entrance for experienced players only, I am afraid. But what a challenge for them. It is good that once in a while there is also a well built, tough mansion. Didn't notice any mistakes so far, but I am not beta-testing, of course. ;D

Liked the yellow area very much, but got into deeeeep trouble >:( :( :-[ at the very first zapper beams in the blue section. As always with zappers. Reminded me of Temple of the Moon.

Freddy wrote on 01.10.2007 at 05:45:33:

Liked the yellow area very much, but got into deeeeep trouble >:( :( :-[ at the very first zapper beams in the blue section. As always with zappers. Reminded me of Temple of the Moon.

As elsewhere in this mansion, this one is extremely easy if you WAIT long enough to see the whole pattern  ;)

Toybox wrote on 01.10.2007 at 00:05:48:

Well, in the very first room for instance, if you jump from too close to the pole and as far as you can. And in the purple section: when you succeed with the high-speed jump and then you wish to jump back via the pole, then you shouldn't jump from too close to the left edge. There may be other examples but then, either I forgot or I didn't miss the pole (could it be that there is one in the Red section?)

Thank you Toybox, I'll look into this.

Poles fixed (thanks Toybox) - and two(!) places where Jack could indeed stray out of his falling line - and kill himself.  The credit for the latter goes to aquaMat, whose comments influenced me to check all falling paths again.

An update will be released soon.

Toybox wrote on 30.09.2007 at 21:59:51:

brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 20:58:53: OK.  Since you've finished the red section without opening that door you know it is not needed to get through but you miss a bit of treasure. I know that, I just feel so silly to have missed it because it is not even remotely hidden! Or maybe you should add a BBB to tell Jack not to overlook that door, and a few arrows poining to it as well  ;)

Only if I may "quote" it from you on the BBB  8-)

aquaMat wrote on 30.09.2007 at 20:51:51:

... I always felt I was quite a skilled player ... but there I certainly begin to doubt my abilities ... :D ;)

I understand what you mean, aquaMat. There has been a time that I also thought from myself that I was a very good player. E.g. by being number 1 on the world high scores list for more than 15 of the original mansions. Till the start of the custom mansions!

Speaking for myself, I prefer to say that I am an "experienced" player (and mansion-designer). What doesn't mean that I am a strong player (or builder). A really strong player is certainly someone like Psychotronic. The very fast way he was able to finish the toughest mansions ever made, was proof enough.

If someone really wants to find out if he/she is a really good player, in my opinion a visit at ACO, HoW, TotM and/or MMaM will give a good valuation of one's skill. And now maybe ARfRG as well. But don't know yet. Anyway, the 8 original hard mansions are "easy" in comparison with those 4 mentioned custom mansions.

It's been a while since I played a genuinely hard mansion. I'm enjoying this so far; must be my masochistic streak. :D

So, it seems to me that it's impossible to venture off into the seabottom at the end of the gold path and still return to play other paths. Am I right? You know me and hidden keys; we're not friends. At all.

Of Freddy's list of "extremely hard" mansions, the only one I've beaten is Temple of the Moon. Loved that one! The biggest problem with hard mansions is the difficulty of exploration. You need to be able to look around to know what to do in order to advance, but every room is so hard that you find you need to do your exploration with a tether to the save pedestals. Play with abandon, figure out what you need to do, then reload from the pedestal and do it right.

Fortunately, so far this mansion has proven rather linear (like the spokes of cart wheel are linear), so the challenge is just getting through. Unlike many players (Vern included), I like this style of mansion. :)

Ryos, you can return after the seabottom adventure.  Just find the hidden key  ;)

brell wrote on 01.10.2007 at 06:22:19:

Only if I may "quote" it from you on the BBB  8-)

Be my guest  ;D

Ah yes, when playing yesterday I lost a few Jacks in the sea bottom: once when falling all the way down to the pole, lever and door (this doesn't happen usually), and a few times when climbing down the seaweed, I mean the vines. Somehow I tend to miss the little platform in the room below.

As for the problem I had in the green room (getting down on the ground again): I think I solved it finally  :-[

brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 21:04:01:

Please give examples of: 1. Nasty surprise deaths 2. Unavoidable falls leading to death 3. Creature attacks which lead to unavoidable deaths 4. Sudden cheap deaths The high speed platform jump is not invented by me.  It has been around since Freddy's MM&M at least. I do not, any more that other mansion builders, get away with Jack-stucks, half Jack-stucks, cheap deaths or anything like that.  To my best knowledge there are no such things in Arfrg.  My tester reported very few which were all fixed.  So if there are still any JS, HJS, cd etc. around I would certainly like to know about them so I can fix them.

Brell, you wanted me to give a few examples...I give a few below, and those are only of the first few rooms of the 4 paths I tried yet. There might be more examples, but these are the ones I now can remember:

Purple section
1.  Rooms 13498 - 13500:  When jumping from that tiny floor bit (Left middle of room 13499) onto that bit with the purple key in  13498...and you walk back: surprise fall (well....one tends to forget that a jump is needed).
2. Hi-speed platform in 13499: jump to middle floor of 13500 is as good as impossible
3. Entering room 13300 from the left, Jack immediately falls to his death. IMO, that is an unfair, too sudden end of the floor.
4. 13099 to 13100:  walking from moving platform in 13099 to platform in 13100 is impossible

Red section:
5. 13502.....  same situation as in room 13300... surprise fall
6. Ladder room 13505: Room is much fun.... but many unavoidable deaths through ladders that end surprisingly.

Green section:
7. Room 14501: Jumping from left to center platform results in endless deaths due to its hardness
8. Room 14502-14503: Looks like it's possible to jump from last (right) middle floor bit to single floor brick in 14503...but results in many deaths

Blue section:
9. Room 14304: Several deaths because of malfunctioning "semi-ladders".
10. 13703: Coming from below: rather cheap death thru anavoidable big spider.

That'll do as a few examples. Some of them will be avodable once the player has practised enough.... but you have to consider the player's first attempts too.....  

Still..... I'll be having fun (and much pain too) while learning to master this beast !!   ;)   8-)

Freddy wrote on 01.10.2007 at 06:34:54:

If someone really wants to find out if he/she is a really good player, in my opinion a visit at ACO, HoW, TotM and/or MMaM will give a good valuation of one's skill. And now maybe ARfRG as well. But don't know yet. Anyway, the 8 original hard mansions are "easy" in comparison with those 4 mentioned custom mansions.

Absolutely!!  I wholeheartedly agree....

But still.... I have to say that there is a certain difference between the hardness of - say - ACO and the new ARFRG. The hardness in ACO (at least in most cases) comes from difficult jumps, hard puzzles, nasty creatures etc. but all within the system of a "normally built" logical mansion, whereas the hardest parts in ARFRG are created by pushing masnion design to its limits, with things like ladder jumps, hi-speed platforms, jumps into the void after which you have to land on the tiniest bit of vine ....stuff like that.

And although everyone here knows I'm no stranger to breaking design rules myself and like to pull a few nasty tricks as well, now and then, I always try to avoid unmanageable hardships that could give the impression they were put in just for the sake of it.
And brell comes up with many interesting hard rooms, that are fun to explore and solve and master. I really like his mansion. It's only now and then that he, IMHO, goes a bit too far and includes things that are unfairly hard and are exactly the sort of things other designers are asked to remove from their mansions by the admins prior to release.

Actually you get used to having to jump into the next room instead of walking there. Or you can jump into the next room, turn back in mid-air and go back where you started from - then take a peek in the map to see if there is a floor at all to support your steps ;)

aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:02:48:

brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 21:04:01: Please give examples of: 1. Nasty surprise deaths 2. Unavoidable falls leading to death 3. Creature attacks which lead to unavoidable deaths 4. Sudden cheap deaths The high speed platform jump is not invented by me.  It has been around since Freddy's MM&M at least. I do not, any more that other mansion builders, get away with Jack-stucks, half Jack-stucks, cheap deaths or anything like that.  To my best knowledge there are no such things in Arfrg.  My tester reported very few which were all fixed.  So if there are still any JS, HJS, cd etc. around I would certainly like to know about them so I can fix them. Brell, you wanted me to give a few examples...I give a few below, and those are only of the first few rooms of the 4 paths I tried yet. There might be more examples, but these are the ones I now can remember: Purple section 1.  Rooms 13498 - 13500:  When jumping from that tiny floor bit (Left middle of room 13499) onto that bit with the purple key in  13498...and you walk back: surprise fall (well....one tends to forget that a jump is needed). 2. Hi-speed platform in 13499: jump to middle floor of 13500 is as good as impossible 3. Entering room 13300 from the left, Jack immediately falls to his death. IMO, that is an unfair, too sudden end of the floor. 4. 13099 to 13100:  walking from moving platform in 13099 to platform in 13100 is impossible

1. Well, I cannot help if you forget that a jump is needed.  Why not take a look at your map?
2. This is simply WRONG!  I have been through at least three mansions with high speed jumps like this.  It is just a question of learning how to master it.
3. Do you run into the room or do you take it slowly?  I always move with caution when I go from one room to another in a mansion I haven't played before.  There has been a debate about this, I know.  I can agree that in an easy or a normal mansion it may not be appropriate but I see nothing against it in a mansion that is advertised as hard to VERY hard.  Furthermore I have seen this at more than one place in the included map mansions that came with the game.
Anyway, added a map in the room before to warn the player.
4. Yes, WALKING between the two platforms is propably impossible.  I haven't been able to do it myself  ::)


aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:02:48:

Red section: 5. 13502.....  same situation as in room 13300... surprise fall 6. Ladder room 13505: Room is much fun.... but many unavoidable deaths through ladders that end surprisingly.

5.  What happens if you hold down the right arrow key while falling?  Map added to warn player
6. Wrong!  When Jack lands on a floating platform or climbs up or down, the warning is always that the fake ladders are in L6.  Of course a quick thinking is sometimes preferred.


aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:02:48:

Green section: 7. Room 14501: Jumping from left to center platform results in endless deaths due to its hardness 8. Room 14502-14503: Looks like it's possible to jump from last (right) middle floor bit to single floor brick in 14503...but results in many deaths

7.  What can I say?  Patience is a virtue
8. It is just a tough jump.  Jack needs to stand on the edge of the brick he is jumping from with his toes outside the brick.


aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:02:48:

Blue section: 9. Room 14304: Several deaths because of malfunctioning "semi-ladders". 10. 13703: Coming from below: rather cheap death thru anavoidable big spider.

9. Why should it lead to deaths?  Besides, I've only experienced the bottom ladder "malfunctioning" but there is a trick to "repair" the malfunction.
10.  The spider is unavoidable.  The death is not.  You can for example wait in the ladder for the spider to go up again.

aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:24:06:

Freddy wrote on 01.10.2007 at 06:34:54: If someone really wants to find out if he/she is a really good player, in my opinion a visit at ACO, HoW, TotM and/or MMaM will give a good valuation of one's skill. And now maybe ARfRG as well. But don't know yet. Anyway, the 8 original hard mansions are "easy" in comparison with those 4 mentioned custom mansions. Absolutely!!  I wholeheartedly agree.... But still.... I have to say that there is a certain difference between the hardness of - say - ACO and the new ARFRG. The hardness in ACO (at least in most cases) comes from difficult jumps, hard puzzles, nasty creatures etc. but all within the system of a "normally built" logical mansion, whereas the hardest parts in ARFRG are created by pushing masnion design to its limits, with things like ladder jumps, hi-speed platforms, jumps into the void after which you have to land on the tiniest bit of vine ....stuff like that.

Hmm... pushing to the limits...  exactly what Psychotronic said about Freddy's MM&M on the old boards.
Ladderjumps have been around since MM&M.  Very easy when you know how to.
High speed platforms have appeared in at least three other mansions.
Jumps into the void ...  hmmm...  I remember such a thing in Chateau de Medusa hard (a fall actually, but into the void without any warning).  And if you are referring to the red section, then I can assure you that no "jump" is needed.


aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:24:06:

And although everyone here knows I'm no stranger to breaking design rules myself and like to pull a few nasty tricks as well, now and then, I always try to avoid unmanageable hardships that could give the impression they were put in just for the sake of it.

It all depends on how hard you want your mansion to be.  There is a difference between "hardiness" and "unfairness".  There is nothing unmanageable in Arfrg.


aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:24:06:

And brell comes up with many interesting hard rooms, that are fun to explore and solve and master. I really like his mansion. It's only now and then that he, IMHO, goes a bit too far and includes things that are unfairly hard and are exactly the sort of things other designers are asked to remove from their mansions by the admins prior to release.

Tell me aquaMat, are you saying I am abusing my position as an admin of the boards?  Can you please give me an example of things included in Arfrg that you have been asked to remove from one of your mansion?  I had the pleasure of testing DoD.  I do not recall anything similar I asked you to remove.  And I have the emails between us.

A further point:  As an admin I have never asked anyone to change anything in a mansion prior to a release.  When a builder sends me a tested mansion I upload it.

The bottom line is:

My Arfrg is advertised as a hard to VERY hard mansion.  There is NOTHING unfair in it but there are many hard and VERY hard rooms/tricks etc.  And also a handful of tricks that look hard but are not.

Toybox wrote on 01.10.2007 at 19:10:10:

brell wrote on 01.10.2007 at 06:22:19: Only if I may "quote" it from you on the BBB  8-) Be my guest  ;D

Done!

Will appear in the next update.

aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:24:06:

... whereas the hardest parts in ARFRG are created by pushing masnion design to its limits, with things like ladder jumps, hi-speed platforms, jumps into the void after which you have to land on the tiniest bit of vine ...

Hey, aquaMat! I KNOW that you got bored in MMaM. No problem with that. But stopping in a custom mansion always means that you are missing things. Did you play Bedlam? There I introduced the 2RJ = two-rooms-jump. The first ladder jumps I created already in a WiP, ages ago, which is now House of Wonders. In the green (easy) and blue (normal) area of MMaM, I learned players in a better, tutorial way how to do ladder jumps. Etc.

So far, I haven't seen any unfairness in A Resort for Retired Goldhunters. The purple area, e.g., didn't give me any problems. More or less common knowledge, if I may say so. But, no good for built-in mansion, of course. Although that isn't the point, since we are talking about CUSTOM mansions. And custom mansions only need to be fair.

OK...... It  must just be me, since no one else has mentioned this issue, and it seems there is lots to mention.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the multi-colored key in room 13500 on the far right corner.  I have tried jumping off of everything in sight, moving or not, climbing, going down, NOTHING IS WORKING !!!  PLEASE HELP  :-/

I want to do the purple section first to have the backpack (that's the easy part), but see that I cannot go much further up without this key.

thanks,
Sandybean

brell, please apologize me, but there is a trick to take the rugsack in the second room, without opening that door in the URC ... So, from the beginning my Jack always has a rugsack! 8-)

And that solves one of your problems, Sandy Bean. (This hint is dedicated to Murphy! ;))

SandyBean wrote on 02.10.2007 at 04:52:01:

OK...... It  must just be me, since no one else has mentioned this issue, and it seems there is lots to mention. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the multi-colored key in room 13500 on the far right corner.  I have tried jumping off of everything in sight, moving or not, climbing, going down, NOTHING IS WORKING !!!  PLEASE HELP  :-/ I want to do the purple section first to have the backpack (that's the easy part), but see that I cannot go much further up without this key. thanks, Sandybean

Hi SandyBean!
You don't take this key until you've finished the purple section.  You don't need it in the section itself!

Freddy wrote on 02.10.2007 at 05:13:33:

brell, please apologize me, but there is a trick to take the rugsack in the second room, without opening that door in the URC ... So, from the beginning my Jack always has a rugsack! 8-) And that solves one of your problems, Sandy Bean. (This hint is dedicated to Murphy! ;))

Hehe.  I always forget the "Toybox novelty" although it is no novelty anymore.  You could also take the gold sacks behind the blue and green door as well.  But not in the next update!  [smiley=evil.gif]

aquaMat wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:02:48:

brell wrote on 30.09.2007 at 21:04:01: Please give examples of: 1. Nasty surprise deaths Brell, you wanted me to give a few examples...I give a few below, and those are only of the first few rooms of the 4 paths I tried yet. There might be more examples, but these are the ones I now can remember: Purple section 1.  Rooms 13498 - 13500:  When jumping from that tiny floor bit (Left middle of room 13499) onto that bit with the purple key in  13498...and you walk back: surprise fall (well....one tends to forget that a jump is needed).

Quote:

1. Well, I cannot help if you forget that a jump is needed.  Why not take a look at your map?

Whoa guys, deja vu. I had this exact same conversation a few months ago with Aquamat about Small Palace of Gore (see attached image for context). Sadly the posts seem to have gone missing...:(

I and others have argued before that room boundaries ought to be safe, even in hard mansions. This subconscious expectation is built up in the player by playing the built-in mansions. Nobody thinks about crossing room boundaries, nobody remembers the details of the room they just left, and most certainly nobody thinks to check the map before walking off an invisible cliff.


Toybox wrote on 01.10.2007 at 20:30:17:

Actually you get used to having to jump into the next room instead of walking there. Or you can jump into the next room, turn back in mid-air and go back where you started from - then take a peek in the map to see if there is a floor at all to support your steps ;)

Ok, so maybe not NOBODY. ;) But the point is that the game conditions you to trust the room boundaries. I would go so far as to posit that the association is as strong as one of the code-enforced rules of the game: Jack can jump, spiders kill you, and room boundaries are safe.

An unsafe room boundary feels like a broken promise, like a save pedestal that does not work or a vine that is fake and sends the player to his death. "I trusted you!" cries the falling Jack. "You promised you would hold me, but when I jumped to you I flew right through!" Likewise, floor tiles that go to the edge of a room are an open invitation for Jack to step across. Put a gap on the other side, and the player feels cheated when he dies.

Such a player would likely conclude that the mansion is poorly designed. He might even hop on the Internet, track down the mansion's designer, and point out the deficiency in hopes that he might find it helpful.

So. What happens when the designer then gets defensive and responds, in essence, that the player is at fault for forgetting that the designer has broken the rules of the game? Well...that would depend on the player.

...BUT...this is just rehashing arguments I'd vowed to let lie, having agreed to disagree and moved on and all that. I just couldn't let the irony pass me by (that aquaMat was repeating with Brell the same conversation that I'd had with him previously, but with the roles reversed). I thought it was funny! Let's all have a laugh together. ;D ;D ;D

---

Oh, hi. Is this still the family friendly game forum where I can go for arguments and feuding? Awesome. Just checking.

ryos wrote on 02.10.2007 at 13:46:29:

But the point is that the game conditions you to trust the room boundaries.

But there is no reason to trust them in a very hard mansion: you just get used to being very, very cautious when walking around. It somehow reminds me of Indiana Jones who often has to be careful where to step :D

As a little aside, I eventually got through the mansion with 100% secrets and 30025$ (maybe)  8-)

Wow. I just reread what I wrote, and I sound like an idiot. I wrote that while in a bad mode for reasons completely unrelated to MM or this forum. So I've stricken and yellowed the bits I'd rather not have said. Read them if you want to see me at my worst.  :-[

I really did think it was funny when aquaMat complained about something I'd complained to him about before, and was trying to have a laugh, but it just came out all wrong. Sorry guys; carry on.

Ryos, while I am not offended in any way by your comments I strongly disagree with you that jumping between rooms is breaking the promises between the player and the builder.  So I have nothing against the jumping you point out in agauMat's PoG.

Thanks Freddy and Brell for the tips and info, I was obsessed with getting that key in the first purple room, and it was really holding Jack up.  (Murphy is greatly relieved, also).

Now we have done the purple and blue sections, and are having a great time in the green section;  I think it is my favorite so far.  VERY DIFFICULT to jump the moving platforms in room 14501 !!!!  Exact timing is essential.  I loved the BBB's in the section, the humor was delightful.

Excellent work, Brell, I am truly enjoying this challenge.

Sandybean [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

Ryos.... what you say is just proving my point (and you probably know it ?!)....'cause I AM FULLY AWARE that we had a similar conversation before...and that IS the point. I remember what amount of heat I had to take for some harder spots in PoG and DoD, including being asked to remove some of the hardest bits prior to release (by  Freddy....and RIGHTLY so, I might add!).

And exactly those kind of tricks, only MUCH harder, are being pulled in ARFRG !!  And somehow I have the feeling brell feels personally attacked by my comments.....but it has NOTHING TO DO with that at all. Quite the contrary.... I said it several times before, I really love this and his other mansions (including the hard parts).

I just wanted to point out that apparently here some of the same things that caused heated discussions in DoD and PoG and God knows where else are okay and nobody dares to question them !!!

I also never said, brell, that you personally had ever asked me to remove things from my mansions, but I had discussion like that with Freddy (and rightly so, as I said above, for today I know he was right). Also I have to say if I would release PoG today it would certainly look different...'cause I have learned and back then that was my first mansion.

I just don't buy it, that I have been accused (repeatedly) of unfairness after the release of DoD, and if I dare to point out that there are similar, but harder things in ARFRG I get told I simply don't play good enough, or I should have consulted the map...etc.

Once and for all: I know how to do LADDER JUMPS. I never said they were new, or too hard per se. I have often done hi-speed platform jumps.....and survived. Not here. Also I do NOT RUN INTO ROOMS. I always walk slowly. But I still fell to my death. Just let's take that last thing as an example:

When I used a gap in the floor in the above pictured "grey rooms" in SPoG / PoG  I was told it was a bit unfair. (By brell among other people, BTW, if I remember correctly......)  I pointed out that the gap ONLY occurs when Jack goes back into a room he has been in before, meaning he has already seen the gap !!

In ARFRG such sudden gaps occur in rooms Jack has NOT seen before, immediately after he enters those rooms (rooms 13300 and 13502) !!   Isn't it understandable that I feel I should at least be allowed to point out that this is exactly the same situation I've once been blamed for....only more so... ??!!

I don't know why you react as if I attacked you personally, brell.  That's really not the case, and I siad it at least in every post, how much I liked your mansions. I did say it was only very occasionally you were going a bit too far out. That's all.

Unfortunately my English doesn't allow me to reply as fluently as I would in German....  so I probably be misunderstood again.
If so, I apologize already.

aquaMat wrote on 03.10.2007 at 00:56:53:

And exactly those kind of tricks, only MUCH harder, are being pulled in ARFRG !!  And somehow I have the feeling brell feels personally attacked by my comments.....but it has NOTHING TO DO with that at all. Quite the contrary.... I said it several times before, I really love this and his other mansions (including the hard parts). I just wanted to point out that apparently here some of the same things that caused heated discussions in DoD and PoG and God knows where else are okay and nobody dares to question them !!!

aquaMat, I am pleased that you love my mansion and believe me, I am not taking your comments personally.  We are disagreeing on a few things and we have both the right to disagree.  :)
My point is that Arfrg is advertised as much harder than both PoG and DoD, for example.  You seem not to share that opinion and although we disagree on that I will fight for your right to have other views than I do on this (as they said in France on the debate of free speech/mind etc.  ;) ).
I also hope that you never ment to give the impression that I am getting away with something other builders don't just because of my position as admin.


aquaMat wrote on 03.10.2007 at 00:56:53:

I just don't buy it, that I have been accused (repeatedly) of unfairness after the release of DoD, and if I dare to point out that there are similar, but harder things in ARFRG I get told I simply don't play good enough, or I should have consulted the map...etc.

I am truly sorry if I offended you, that was not my meaning.  And again, Arfrg is meant to be a much harder mansion than DoD and PoG


aquaMat wrote on 03.10.2007 at 00:56:53:

When I used a gap in the floor in the above pictured "grey rooms" in SPoG / PoG  I was told it was a bit unfair. (By brell among other people, BTW, if I remember correctly......)  I pointed out that the gap ONLY occurs when Jack goes back into a room he has been in before, meaning he has already seen the gap !! In ARFRG such sudden gaps occur in rooms Jack has NOT seen before, immediately after he enters those rooms (rooms 13300 and 13502) !!   Isn't it understandable that I feel I should at least be allowed to point out that this is exactly the same situation I've once been blamed for....only more so... ??!!

I just looked at the posts on PoG and SPoG and I couldn't find any by me telling you that the jump across rooms was unfair.  And as I said in an earlier post I have added maps to warn the player about those rooms in question, which will be included in the first update of Arfrg.


aquaMat wrote on 03.10.2007 at 00:56:53:

I don't know why you react as if I attacked you personally.  That's really not the case, and I siad it at least in every post, how much I liked your mansions. I did say it was only very occasionally you were going a bit too far out. That's all. Unfortunately my English doesn't allow me to reply as fluently as I would in German....  so I probably be misunderstood again. If so, I apologize already.

I am sorry if you have taken my answers as I have been offended in any way.  That is not the case.
In the end a person's opinion on any given mansion is a matter of taste.  That is completely all right.

And, unfortunately my German doesn't allow me to read as fluently as I do in English so thank you for writing in English  ;D    But Icelandic would of course have been better.  8-)

aquaMat wrote on 03.10.2007 at 00:56:53:

Ryos.... what you say is just proving my point (and you probably know it ?!)....'cause I AM FULLY AWARE that we had a similar conversation before...and that IS the point. I remember what amount of heat I had to take for some harder spots in PoG and DoD, including being asked to remove some of the hardest bits prior to release (by  Freddy....and RIGHTLY so, I might add!).

Huh. My impression from our prior conversations is that we just agreed to disagree on that point and moved on. I knew that Brell and others (and, I thought until now, Aquamat) disagreed with me that room boundaries should be safe, and was prepared to just let the issue lie (although if I had been a tester for ARFRGH I would have commented on it to be sure). But, like I said I had a fart cloud in my brain or something and had to just fart out the same old arguments that never helped anything.

So, on a lighter note, typing ARFRGH, I realized it's an onomatopoeia for the sound that escapes from one's mouth while playing it. ;D :P ;D

ryos wrote on 03.10.2007 at 02:27:15:

So, on a lighter note, typing ARFRGH, I realized it's an onomatopoeia for the sound that escapes from one's mouth while playing it. ;D :P ;D

But it is ARFRG, not ARFRGH!     :) ;) :D ;D 8-) ::)

ARFRG could also be the sound of bones crashing......   ;)  ;D

...which gives me a great idea how we could celebrate that we've overcome this discussion: Let's make a new joint custom mansion.... but one where the principles of the game are reversed and Jack dies all sorts of hilarious, unnatural deaths. Each of us adds a room or two, that incorporates another hardship which only results in one thing: Jack dying again.   ;)   :D

In the first room we use what I now call "Wingy's brother's money bag extravaganza" and supply money bags for 99 lives, and in each successive room the resp. designer has Jack master some unmanageable task resulting in his death. Maybe each successive designer tries to make it even more hilarious and over-the-top than the one preceeding him.....

The aim of the game???
1. Fun
2. The player has to arrive in the last room with 0 lives.
3. Remind us again that MM is - after all - only a game designed to bring us fun, so it doesn't matter if we lose 1 or 100 lives in a mansion..... in the end all we have to do is RESTART and we can have another go. Wish life would be that easy !
:)

Or maybe that's a stooopid idea and I've now gone completely crazy ?!
Oh....I don't know.....

Hey, who have this Mansion play ready? I not, its really to hard for me. Can you make this Mansion a little easier plz?  :-/

aquaMat wrote on 03.10.2007 at 17:20:09:

...which gives me a great idea how we could celebrate that we've overcome this discussion: Let's make a new joint custom mansion.... but one where the principles of the game are reversed and Jack dies all sorts of hilarious, unnatural deaths.

Wasn't this how Douglas Adams came up with the idea of Vogons destroying the Earth in order to build a new galactic bypass? If my memory serves me right, he had intended to write short stories, each of which ending up in Earth being destroyed (in an entertaining fashion).

:D

Apart from that, I also thought about Custom Mansions lately....  It seems to me that they fall in two rough categories: standard and non-standard ones.

By "standard" I mean, when a player who likes the original mansions can download it and play it with no afterthought.

By "non-standard" I mean that it involves a fancy trick (ladder jumps, toybox trick, whatever) which maybe had been introduced in a previous mansion by means of tutorial or hints of some sort, and is re-used afterwards like a normal feature. This means that it might be very difficult for someone who doesn't follow all mansions all the time to play such a custom mansion without preparation. In other words, he might feel cheated if he downloads the mansion at random and tries to play it, feeling stuck or something.

While I certainly like both sorts of CMs, maybe some sort of warning should be issued so that a player wouldn't end up innocently trying to play a mansion which turns out to be impossible unless you learn the trick before?

Chippy wrote on 03.10.2007 at 19:00:34:

Hey, who have this Mansion play ready? I not, its really to hard for me. Can you make this Mansion a little easier plz?  :-/

Mikee, as for now I have no plans to make an easier version.  Meanwhile, if you want to practise ladderjumps and other non-standard tricks, I recommend you play Freddy's Midnight Mazes and Monsters, which starts very easy and then gradually becomes more difficult until it ends very hard.

Also, in my Arfrg, try to start in the red section where you accumulate lives most quickly.

Other hard mansions with non-standard tricks to practise are e.g. House of Wonder and Bedlam, both by Freddy.

Okay...  :)

Toybox wrote on 03.10.2007 at 19:19:53:

While I certainly like both sorts of CMs, maybe some sort of warning should be issued so that a player wouldn't end up innocently trying to play a mansion which turns out to be impossible unless you learn the trick before?

Maybe a new tutorial mansion in the easy to normal category is needed to introduce and practise those non-standard tricks.

brell wrote on 03.10.2007 at 19:47:33:

Maybe a new tutorial mansion in the easy to normal category is needed to introduce and practise those non-standard tricks.

Great idea  8-)

Toybox wrote on 03.10.2007 at 19:19:53:

Wasn't this how Douglas Adams came up with the idea of Vogons destroying the Earth in order to build a new galactic bypass? If my memory serves me right, he had intended to write short stories, each of which ending up in Earth being destroyed (in an entertaining fashion). :D

Oooh...I didn't know that....Very interesting !!

So Sad  :-[    I've finished ARFRG and have no other mansions to do!!!

I loved the mansion, and was so disapointed when it ended!  I did it in 66 mins (most of that spent in the second room of the green section getting that jump between two moving platforms!!!) and ended up with 31,875 points, 100% secrets and 10 lives left over.

I then decided to see what building a mansion might entail, since after all, a five year old made one, how difficult could it be?  :o :o :o  Well...... I now TRULY APPRECIATE all the time and effort it takes to make just one room, and can see how creating a mansion is really a labour of love.  

I agree that working on some other hard mansions prior to trying ARFRG is a great idea, I had just struggled thru and finished MM&M recently (with major help from Freddy during the tan section), so had lots of practice with tricky maneouvres.

Hats off to all you creative and dedicated designers  [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

SandyBean [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

I like Aquamat's idea. It would be fun! We could give it a theme park motif. Scream park perhaps? Infernal Scream Park? With "rides" and "attractions" that kill Jack in hilarious ways. I've got an idea for the beginning that I like a lot, so if you wouldn't mind, could I do the first section?

I mean, it was Aquamat's idea, so he has first dibs on the first section if he wants it, but I like my idea too much not to volunteer.  [smiley=evil.gif]

I think ... ;D it is best NOT to quote anybody.

MAJOR fork! There are mansions like the 8 x 3 original ones: Falcon Manor Easy to Spider Palace Hard. These mansions contain the features like they were supposed by Vern Jensen, creator of our marvellous game. And then the custom mansions came, made in the same line of those originals.

But after a few months, designers got aware of other possibilities with the "builder" and start looking for the edges. Result: experiments like in the long forgotten WiPs. Some of them were awful, dangerous, stupid, ... BUT! Finally the best of the "wonders" became common knowledge and got accepted as reasonable by a lot of players and designers. E.g. ladder jumps, the use of BBB-hints, looking at maps, ... The last two of them seems so obvious, but I know from myself ... ::)

I remember that picture from Small Palace of Gore. Of course I do! I did the beta-testing and I AGREED with aquaMat that it was okay, because at that roomlink-jump, every player has seen the room before. In a hard or very hard mansion, I think, that one doesn't need to discuss that. But on the other hand, while beta-testing, I never ask anybody to "remove" stuff. I only do suggestions, because the designer always must have the LAST WORD. Except in Catacombs, which is a completely different story.

ryos wrote on 04.10.2007 at 04:32:21:

I like Aquamat's idea. It would be fun! We could give it a theme park motif. Scream park perhaps? Infernal Scream Park? With "rides" and "attractions" that kill Jack in hilarious ways. I've got an idea for the beginning that I like a lot, so if you wouldn't mind, could I do the first section? I mean, it was Aquamat's idea, so he has first dibs on the first section if he wants it, but I like my idea too much not to volunteer.  [smiley=evil.gif]

I think aquaMat and you, Ryos, should perhaps start working on such a mansion.  The challenge would be to get through with one life, beginning with, say 99 lifes.  I might be able to squeeze in a room or two on later stages.

But please start a new thread about this ... deadly mansion  ;)

ryos wrote on 04.10.2007 at 04:32:21:

I like Aquamat's idea. It would be fun! We could give it a theme park motif. Scream park perhaps? Infernal Scream Park? With "rides" and "attractions" that kill Jack in hilarious ways. I've got an idea for the beginning that I like a lot, so if you wouldn't mind, could I do the first section? I mean, it was Aquamat's idea, so he has first dibs on the first section if he wants it, but I like my idea too much not to volunteer.  [smiley=evil.gif]

Scream Park..... what a GREAT idea !!   :D  ;)  :)

Sure, ryos...go ahead and start the mansion.... I'd be glad to supply a room or two, but it doesn't have to be the first rooms.

I'm glad you liked the idea....


PS: I'll start a new thread titled "Scream Park", but maybe you should make the first (real) post there as soon as you come up with something. We could then supply the mansion to the next designer via that thread (or via email) to work on the next rooms.

Freddy wrote on 04.10.2007 at 04:46:35:

I remember that picture from Small Palace of Gore. Of course I do! I did the beta-testing and I AGREED with aquaMat that it was okay, because at that roomlink-jump, every player has seen the room before. In a hard or very hard mansion, I think, that one doesn't need to discuss that. But on the other hand, while beta-testing, I never ask anybody to "remove" stuff. I only do suggestions, because the designer always must have the LAST WORD. Except in Catacombs, which is a completely different story.

You are right. I might have used the wrong term with the word "asked to remove"..... I'm aware of course that it was a suggestion not an order !

OK mr hard mansion builder, I'm stuck in the dark room (14101) in the green level. Is there
somewhere I can find a lantern, or can you give me a hint to get me to the ladder on the
right side of the room?

Thanks, trying hard,
Nancy

I'm adding this so I will be notified when you answer.

Thanks, great work!
N

Sorry, no lantern available.  Once there was a game called "snakes and ladders".  So, next to a snake (or snakes) is a .....

thanks I'll see what I can do!

Just finished this one again after a few years of playing it last.  I've got to hand it you, Brell - you sure can make a very hard but still playable mansion. This is one of my all time favorites. I really love some of the unique traps/rooms you constructed. Very nice and a lot of fun

I actually like the fact that there are not multiple (easier) versions. It's more interesting to me to see mansions that were created to be either Easy, Normal, Hard, or crazy Hard. 

The only room I was slightly critical of room 13503 - the fake ladder puzzle. It wasn't clear that Jack was supposed to head up. I eventually got it.. by accident actually, but other than that minor nitpick I really had a lot of fun with the mansion.

Thanks for making and sharing it.

Thanks for the compliment, Rob  :)