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General Custom Mansions Area (Mac and Windows) >> MM1 HD talk (Mac and Windows) >> At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
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Message started by gonzo on 10.04.2012 at 23:38:08

Title: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by gonzo on 10.04.2012 at 23:38:08
Hi there,

today I downloaded the DoD mansion which was not HD ready. So I got "Rezycle" and converted the original mansion. I know, that the graphics (picts) are not HD ready, but I love this mansion for the music and the hidden tricks in it!
So what about the Music? If you want to hear the great DoD
background music, you have to convert the mp3's to .ogg files (I did it with Amadeus Pro) and put them in the Music folder inside the MM App. (Right click on the application -> show package and then into Contents->Resources->Game Data->Music.
So it works great and I'm enjoying this great mansion with great background music.
(ok, it's a lot more fun with the individual pics, but this seems to be much more work)
Best,
gonzo

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Semi-Native on 11.04.2012 at 00:22:12
Thanks for the how-to, gonzo. I love that mansion, too.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by gonzo on 11.04.2012 at 04:21:12
Hi,

since MM HD released, the building of customized mansions is going to "nothing"! So I decide to make a poll to see what YOU say about this... see ABOVE!!!!

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by gonzo on 11.04.2012 at 04:29:42

Semi-Native wrote on 11.04.2012 at 00:22:12:
Thanks for the how-to, gonzo. I love that mansion, too.



Thanks! ... It's very sad, that since the realease of MM1 HD no one can build new mansions with "Lion" ... I believe that most people go to "Lion" and waiting for  ... nothing??? ---

I'm astonished, that a real living and working community fall asleep!

... or is this a false analysis ...

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 11.04.2012 at 20:39:05
The reason why we didn't include DoD in the HD ready mansions list is that it had both custom music AND custom graphic (Jack's shirt at least).  If everything is working OK we might reconsider.  Are there absolutely no complications regarding music and graphics?

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by gonzo on 11.04.2012 at 23:34:06

brell wrote on 11.04.2012 at 20:39:05:
The reason why we didn't include DoD in the HD ready mansions list is that it had both custom music AND custom graphic (Jack's shirt at least).  If everything is working OK we might reconsider.  Are there absolutely no complications regarding music and graphics?


See below please! so: Music ok, Gameplay ok (some signboards are not working), but NO individual graphics.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 29.04.2012 at 01:31:13

gonzo wrote on 11.04.2012 at 04:29:42:

Semi-Native wrote on 11.04.2012 at 00:22:12:
Thanks for the how-to, gonzo. I love that mansion, too.



Thanks! ... It's very sad, that since the realease of MM1 HD no one can build new mansions with "Lion" ... I believe that most people go to "Lion" and waiting for  ... nothing??? ---

I'm astonished, that a real living and working community fall asleep!

... or is this a false analysis ...


Hello everybody,

after a very long time I traveled to our (once so beloved) forums and found this discussion.

1. Concerning Gonzo's quote above:
When the HD version of the game was publicly beta-tested on these pages (by volunteers of our community) I couldn't take part, because back then I didn't yet have a modern Mac with Lion or Snow Leopard. I was still using a G5 Power Mac with Mac OS 10.4.11.
BUT ALSO I found out about that beta-testing only when it was already well under way (because I had been visiting the forums not as often as I used to).....and nobody had ever asked me to check my mansions for HD-compatibility, which I found a bit strange, considering how many custom-mansions I had designed.

I didn't even fully understand what the HD-version was about until much later (!!) and only when I finally bought a MacBook running Lion in December 2011 I discovered that there is no more Mansion Level Design Editor available for that system.

So yes, I feel very much that what was once a vibrant, active community is pretty much falling apart. Jesus, I used to log in to these pages at least once a day in the old times....  and even if my inactivity here is partly due to personal health issues (during the last year or so) there's also another reason for it, which I might desribe as the "loss of that communal feeling" or whatever.....

Add to that the fact that nobody's building new mansions anymore - and we're having a pretty sad situation. (BTW: I have at least 3 or 4 nearly or half-finished MM2 mansions which I can't finish at the moment, plus ca. 2 old-style MM1 mansions that are somewhere between half-finished and playable - but which won't make much sense to finish, I reckon).

I wish I had a fully working HD-version, so I could test a few of my old mansions (using that workaround)....

2. Discotheque Of Doom
Discotheque Of Doom is a rather 'old' mansion of mine - and the first one where I ever used custom-graphics (and also my own music). I'm pleased to hear - after all this time - that there seem to be a few people out there who still like it. I remember I was pretty proud of it when I finished it.

But you know what:  I had no idea that it has been left out of the HD-ready list. Again - I have never been contacted about any of my mansions and their "HD-readyness". Maybe I could have helped - either with information or (since December 2011) with some (re-design) work or anything.

I - personally - find it rather odd (maybe understandably so, after the hundreds of hours that we, as mansion designers, have put into this game) that a Windows-port of MM is higher on the agenda than a Lion-compatible Level Editor.
After all - for us as proud longtime Mac users, Windows always was the 'enemy'.....!

On the other hand - there (still) are far more Windows users out there than Mac users, and Vern surely deserves to sell his game to some of them.
I only hope he doesn't wait too long with creating the Lion-compatible Level Editor .... cause one day someone might log in here and will find that all the old designers have gone and the once glorious MM spirit will have evaporated, like dust in the wind.
:'(     8-)

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 29.04.2012 at 01:58:23

gonzo wrote on 11.04.2012 at 23:34:06:
See below please! so: Music ok, Gameplay ok (some signboards are not working), but NO individual graphics.


One other thing:

Everybody who knows me a bit is probably aware that one of the things I really don't like that much is if other people are messin' about with my mansion designs.

In this case it's a bit different of course - since I wasn't aware of any of these issues  I think it's good that Gonzo has made the effort and tried to make DoD playable in HD.

BUT - I have now read that he managed to get everything working except the custom graphics.  As far as I remember the custom graphics (even if there wasn't that many and it was my first foray into custom graphics) were quite essential to the feel, look and gameplay of DoD.

So I'm not quite sure how much 'fun' this adapted version really is - compared to the fully-working non-HD version.... I might have to play the original version again to re-aquaint myself with it.

However, what would be needed to make the custom-graphics visible in that adapted-HD version?

Would it really be only possible with a Lion Level Editor.
Or could that "Recycle-Workaround" - which I'm afraid I have not yet fully understood - help to make all custom graphics work?

BTW: The BBB issues are probably more related to that old BBB-bug that we know for a few years now - where some BBB's that once were perfectly okay are suddenly not working correctly anymore.
I had it in several non-HD mansions, and I never discovered any method to that madness !

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Semi-Native on 29.04.2012 at 03:35:22
Hi aquaMat, it's great to hear from you. I agree with what you said about the community falling off drastically because of a lack of the level editor. There's also a compatibility problem with the old mansions under Lion, I believe. Which is why I've stuck with Snow Leopard, at least I can still play ALL the custom mansions with the original MM.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by SandyBean on 29.04.2012 at 05:55:52
Hi Aquamat and All ~

I have to say, the forums have been quiet, and myself I have been very frustrated not to be able to play any of AquaMats CM's in HD.  Back when all the mansions that were transformed for HD, there were some that required special work to make them HD friendly.  I know the one I built (Immortal Ruins) was one (and I still have not had time nor a person available to help me do this, as I am a bit computer illiterate and nervous), and all of AquaMats CM's, that needed more work to get them HD ready. 

For me it feels really regrettable that everyone is waiting for newer stuff, more modern Macs and things (I'm also on Tiger, 10.4) to do any MM fun stuff.... building, creating, playing and such. 

The last mansion built was for MM2, and was by me...I'm really honoured (LoL !), but seriously was hoping there would be some new ones by now. 

I've always totally enjoyed the 'community feel', camaraderie and support of the folks in this forum, and I'm sure with some help, input, direction, encouragement and enthusiasm we can get happy and busy, and get some fun stuff happening !!

Thanks Everyone...Oh and by the way....Our Shasta dog had 10 beautiful puppies on Tuesday !  Here's a pic of the happy family   [smiley=engel017.gif]

Take care,
SandyBean [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

What_a_good_Shastamum.jpg (72 KB | 468 )

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 29.04.2012 at 08:46:43
@ SandyBean:

Ohmygawd..... are those dogs cute !!!


@ SandyBean & Semi-Native:

I did also keep my "big" computer, my trusty old G5, running OS 10.4.11, as there are enough applications that run perfectly on it (it's actually in my studio) and several that won't run on Lion at all.

However.....  once I had that new MacBook and Lion for a while I quickly got used to the new speed, the new functionality etc. and found myself spending more and more time on the new machine....

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 29.04.2012 at 09:35:42

gonzo wrote on 11.04.2012 at 04:21:12:
Hi,

since MM HD released, the building of customized mansions is going to "nothing"! So I decide to make a poll to see what YOU say about this... see ABOVE!!!!


I had a fairly lengthy response started, but I'll hold off a bit on it. The main question you should answer is how much would you be willing to pay for a new version of the Mansion Builder that worked on lion? It may sound kind of crass, but the economics of creating a new Mansion Builder are difficult at best. I note that 5 people (so far) on the forum feel strongly about the Mansion Builder, and I wonder how much those 5 people would be willing to pay for a new builder if it came down to it. Keep in mind all the custom mansions done so far were done by about 30 folks or less. I felt strongly enough initially to start developing a version from scratch. Unfortunately, my day job, commute, and family leave me very little time to devote to something like this.

I can only imagine that some people read this, and thought to themselves, "Pay? But I got it with the game before..." That may be true, however this version of the game was cheaper than the one before, and those who had the original game also got a discount on this new version. If Vern hadn't done the work he'd done those who upgraded to Lion wouldn't be able to play it at all.

It's easy to forget that this is a big part of how Vern makes his living. With this version of the game, he's selling it for less than the original, and trying to make it available to as many people as possible to make further work on it a viable activity to support himself. I'm afraid that it isn't working out as well as he'd hoped.


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Semi-Native on 29.04.2012 at 09:54:57
Hi SandyBean, great to hear from you, too. Beautiful pups and mom!

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Semi-Native on 29.04.2012 at 10:00:28
Even though I've only built one mansion and contributed to Catacombs for one section, I'd be more than willing to pay for a new Level Builder. After all, it wouldn't be expensive, and I would hope most people would be willing to shell out a few bucks for it. I do realize a lot of work goes into these games, and this is the best game I've ever found, hands down.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 29.04.2012 at 13:17:32

aquaMat wrote on 29.04.2012 at 01:58:23:
[quote author=4A424357422D0 link=1334071748/5#5 date=1334157906]
Would it really be only possible with a Lion Level Editor.
Or could that "Recycle-Workaround" - which I'm afraid I have not yet fully understood - help to make all custom graphics work?

BTW: The BBB issues are probably more related to that old BBB-bug that we know for a few years now - where some BBB's that once were perfectly okay are suddenly not working correctly anymore.
I had it in several non-HD mansions, and I never discovered any method to that madness !


Rezycle is a stand-alone tool which "unpacks" the resource fork from a file. You can drag a mansion onto the Rezycle icon, or open rezycle and drag-and-drop the mansion on the opened Rezycle window. This will create a directory called: Resources from "<the mansion name>" that contains all the extracted resources.

The BBB issues, at least the easiest to spot issues, revolve around the description that was part of the resource information. This must have made all kinds of sense in the early days, because it documented the resource, whether it was sign/BBB or whether it was an image (pict file). Unfortunately, when Recycle extracts the resources, it embeds the description into the filename if it was set. For example, in the 'PICT' subdirectory, *all* the pict files contain a description like:

00351 "GreenBricks + Disco".pict

This would have to be renamed to:

00351.pict

This would have to be done for all resources like this. I've typically only seen it in the 'TEXT' and 'PICT' subdirectories - mostly in the older mansions. So for custom graphics you would have to:

(Assuming Rezycle has already unpacked the mansion)

1. Check and correct embedded descriptions within 'PICT' subdirectory

2. Use some tool that can convert all .pict files to .png files

3. Remove all .pict files.

5. Scale all .png files up 2 times their current size. When in doubt, compare size with resources under Game Data/Sprites.

6. Ensure transparency is maintained.

Keep in mind, the image quality will suffer when you scale it up. In the game, the resulting images will probably look somewhat pixelated. Basically, this is like taking a digital picture with a 3-4 Megapixel Camera and blowing it up to 8x10 or larger image. Scaling images up might be step one, but probably a better path to go would be to use the old custom images as a guide, and apply the same color changes to copies of the new game images. 

Before you change any image you should compare it to the new game graphics. Some graphics - such as those for Jack and possibly some monsters have changed enough so that simply scaling it up won't work. It will load OK, because the size (doubled) will be correct, but the animation will be off because the figures present in the image have changed. Changes to Jack are best redone using the current "Jack" image as a starting point.

Tools I found useful:
- Photoshop (or Gimp and Xee)
   
  Unfortunately if you use Gimp, it doesn't know how to deal with .pict files, so you'll have to convert them to PNG with another tool. I played with a few. You might try Xee - it was fairly straight forward (and free). Photoshop *can* convert the .pict files. There are no shortage of graphics tools, though not all of them have been ported to Lion.




Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 29.04.2012 at 13:38:53
You can convert pict files in Preview to png!!! Though I don't think you can batch convert.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 29.04.2012 at 14:16:41

aquaMat wrote on 29.04.2012 at 01:31:13:
.....and nobody had ever asked me to check my mansions for HD-compatibility, which I found a bit strange, considering how many custom-mansions I had designed.


I'm sorry we didn't contact you and the other designers. It sounds bad, but it was something we had intended, and even talked about it but didn't follow through with for whatever reason. The new game was getting ready to come out, and we wanted players to be able to be able to play as many of the custom mansions as possible.

The majority of the mansions required no changes other than to be "unpacked" using rezycle. We figured that we (the Admins) could do these since no "real" changes to the mansions were needed (and no builder was necessary). It was felt that a few people who knew how could take care of this quickly, and it did go quickly for the most part. Perhaps, too quickly...

Some mansions (the older ones), had descriptions embedded in the resources which (as I mentioned in another post), caused  problems in the game. These problems were easy to fix, and also didn't require a Builder, and didn't result in any noticeable change within the game so we also fixed these.

We were extremely reluctant to make any changes within any mansion that required the editor, even though most of the admins had (still have as far as I know) access to an older Mac and the old Builder. We felt this was best left to individual designers, or done with permission.

Due to minor game changes, some mansions were broken. For example:

- Mansions where levers were stylistically lowered one brick below the ground, so that only the top portion of the lever was sticking out. These levers cannot be pulled in the new Game. I believe this was a side effect of Vern 'fixing' it so that levers could not be pulled mid-air. Some mansions were *full* of levers like this.

- Some mansions used portions of the ladder in unusually decorative ways. They ended up not resembling ladders whatsoever. The new game doesn't allow these ladder pieces to work, which broke a few puzzles.

- The behavior of some of the disappearing platforms changed so that if you jumped from a disappearing platform from one screen onto a floating platform in another screen, that platform might not be there to land on.

We noted these issues, and took no action unless we had permission. Once we had done as much as we could, we intended to ask for permission. We should have at least sent a PM (I know that I felt a bit like I was intruding by sending unsolicited email). These issues would have been fairly easy to fix, but required access to an editor. I wrote some scripts that could at least identify some of the issues quickly.

The largest problem was the custom graphics, because the graphics were overhauled for this new version. Jacob completely redid *all* the graphics. Up until today, I thought the changes were limited to being twice the size, and featured new art, but I thought that all the figures in the art were in the same positions as before. I realized I was wrong when I compared the Jack graphic in the Discotheque of doom and the graphic for Jack.

My guess is that those mansions that feature a large amount of custom graphics will probably need to be redone completely (at least the graphics). Simply scaling the graphics larger doesn't look that great. I tried a few experiments with DoD today and the results were mixed. *None* of the admins wished to make fundamental changes to anyone else's mansion. Like I said, I think the intention had always been to contact those designers whose dungeons didn't convert cleanly. After the initial flurry of activity, we all got busy with other things, I guess, and I think it was forgotten. Brell *did* post about conversions, and some of the issues with mansions. There was certainly no disrespect intended.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 29.04.2012 at 14:19:46

rose wrote on 29.04.2012 at 13:38:53:
You can convert pict files in Preview to png!!! Though I don't think you can batch convert.


You know, I *thought* you could do this, but when I tried it only allowed me to export as .pdf. Perhaps this changed in Lion? I had to look for other alternatives.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 29.04.2012 at 14:56:50

Semi-Native wrote on 29.04.2012 at 10:00:28:
Even though I've only built one mansion and contributed to Catacombs for one section, I'd be more than willing to pay for a new Level Builder. After all, it wouldn't be expensive, and I would hope most people would be willing to shell out a few bucks for it. I do realize a lot of work goes into these games, and this is the best game I've ever found, hands down.


I didn't mean to imply that no one would, just that no matter who works on it, it would end up being a labor of love more than anything else, since there's no way the costs for doing it would ever be recouped. Unfortunately, this means it's going to necessarily take a back seat to efforts that better help to pay the bills. This doesn't mean that the Builder will never be done - it's just not as high on the priority list is all. Then again, who knows? I suppose there's always the chance that Vern could suddenly figure out a way it could be done quickly and easily and surprise everyone.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 29.04.2012 at 15:12:55

Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:19:46:

rose wrote on 29.04.2012 at 13:38:53:
You can convert pict files in Preview to png!!! Though I don't think you can batch convert.


You know, I *thought* you could do this, but when I tried it only allowed me to export as .pdf. Perhaps this changed in Lion? I had to look for other alternatives.

No, I don't have Lion and will not buy Lion either. You have to use the Save as, where you can choose the format. How you do in Lion I don't know. It is probably File > Duplicate, File > save as???

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 29.04.2012 at 16:10:18

rose wrote on 29.04.2012 at 15:12:55:

Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:19:46:

rose wrote on 29.04.2012 at 13:38:53:
You can convert pict files in Preview to png!!! Though I don't think you can batch convert.


You know, I *thought* you could do this, but when I tried it only allowed me to export as .pdf. Perhaps this changed in Lion? I had to look for other alternatives.

No, I don't have Lion and will not buy Lion either. You have to use the Save as, where you can choose the format. How you do in Lion I don't know. It is probably File > Duplicate, File > save as???


(Shrug) I guess it's been removed in Lion, then. I still have one laptop that has Snow Leopard, but don't use it that often. I'll have to check when I get back home tomorrow.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 29.04.2012 at 21:23:39
@ Rob Seagal:

Thanks a lot for your lengthy "how-to-guide". Of course I do know what Rezycle is (after all I had always used it for my custom graphics), I only didn't know the details of that Rezycle-Workaround that has been mentioned as a means to 'update' older custom mansions for Lion use.

Judging from your description it is more complicated than I thought - for example I didn't know that the game now uses .png-files of a difference size.  This sounds like considerable work, depending of the amount of custom graphics a given mansion has.

But I might try my luck with one of my old mansions in the next couple of weeks.
As for graphic apps: I was a Photoshop user for many years.... and still have an old version of it running on my old G5. Unfortunately on this new MacBook running Lion, I only have Gimp....which can be a pain in the ass in terms of operating speed / control etc.

About your question about who is willing to pay what for a Level Editor update:
I can fully understand your point of view and Vern's situation etc., and I am sure it'll take quite some time to create that Level Editor update, and principally I guess I'd be willing to spend a few bucks on that.
On the other hand I feel our designing & programming of custom mansions in what (in my case at least) amounts to literally several hundreds of hours of work, does add considerably to the value of the game. For a potential customer of MM  it surely makes a difference if he is spending his initial 10 or 20 bucks on 8 or on more than 100 mansions.

This is something that Vern & yourself really should consider when thinking about the "worth" of a level editor update: in the end the game will gain a considerable boost (in marketability)....  and I'm not even beginning to talk about the good, hopefully 'rejuvenating' effect it would have on this community.

(Bottom Line: So somehow I guess I would feel a little awkward being asked to pay for my contribution....!)

PS: I don't think you should take the meagre participation in Gonzo's poll as a (representative) indication of how many people would be interested in a level editor update (or not). It is rather a reflection of the state of sleep this community is in....

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 29.04.2012 at 21:54:57

Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:16:41:

aquaMat wrote on 29.04.2012 at 01:31:13:
.....and nobody had ever asked me to check my mansions for HD-compatibility, which I found a bit strange, considering how many custom-mansions I had designed.


I'm sorry we didn't contact you and the other designers. It sounds bad, but it was something we had intended, and even talked about it but didn't follow through with for whatever reason. The new game was getting ready to come out, and we wanted players to be able to be able to play as many of the custom mansions as possible.

(...)


Thanks for clarifying this....


Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:16:41:
Due to minor game changes, some mansions were broken. For example:

- Mansions where levers were stylistically lowered one brick below the ground, so that only the top portion of the lever was sticking out. These levers cannot be pulled in the new Game. I believe this was a side effect of Vern 'fixing' it so that levers could not be pulled mid-air. Some mansions were *full* of levers like this.


That sounds like mine.... 8-) !
I have "invented" the "bury-the-lever-in-the-ground-feature" (meaning I have discovered that it works) and then used it extensively as I always found it looked better - especially in those cases when those 'lever-bottoms' of different color (yellow/green) were screwing up my room designs. I know that there is a reason for these different colors.... but I found in most cases that this information isn't really necessary.

So I'm afraid - there goes another great feature (which originated in an omission or bug until some custom mansion designer made it a feature).... because Vern has "improved" it.
In German we have a slang word for that: verschlimmbessern. It is an artificial word made from 2 words: "to improve" and "to make it worse" (at the same time)......  I know Vern only means well.... but sometimes I fear he's taking out too many of the quirks and odds that make MM so wonderful... even if most of them were never intended. 
To think that I have to go thru all my mansions and dig out all the levers makes me want to cry.....! :o


Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:16:41:
- Some mansions used portions of the ladder in unusually decorative ways. They ended up not resembling ladders whatsoever. The new game doesn't allow these ladder pieces to work, which broke a few puzzles.

- The behavior of some of the disappearing platforms changed so that if you jumped from a disappearing platform from one screen onto a floating platform in another screen, that platform might not be there to land on.


That sounds not good......   I might have used a feature like that once in a while.


Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:16:41:
We noted these issues, and took no action unless we had permission. Once we had done as much as we could, we intended to ask for permission. We should have at least sent a PM (I know that I felt a bit like I was intruding by sending unsolicited email). (...)

Yeah, you should have just sent a quick PM or mail....


Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:16:41:
(...)

My guess is that those mansions that feature a large amount of custom graphics will probably need to be redone completely (at least the graphics). Simply scaling the graphics larger doesn't look that great. I tried a few experiments with DoD today and the results were mixed. *None* of the admins wished to make fundamental changes to anyone else's mansion. Like I said, I think the intention had always been to contact those designers whose dungeons didn't convert cleanly. After the initial flurry of activity, we all got busy with other things, I guess, and I think it was forgotten. Brell *did* post about conversions, and some of the issues with mansions. There was certainly no disrespect intended.


Thanks again for making this clear !

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 29.04.2012 at 22:40:21

aquaMat wrote on 29.04.2012 at 21:54:57:
That sounds like mine.... 8-) !
I have "invented" the "bury-the-lever-in-the-ground-feature" (meaning I have discovered that it works) and then used it extensively as I always found it looked better - especially in those cases when those 'lever-bottoms' of different color (yellow/green) were screwing up my room designs. I know that there is a reason for these different colors.... but I found in most cases that this information isn't really necessary.

So I'm afraid - there goes another great feature (which originated in an omission or bug until some custom mansion designer made it a feature).... because Vern has "improved" it.
In German we have a slang word for that: verschlimmbessern. It is an artificial word made from 2 words: "to improve" and "to make it worse" (at the same time)......  I know Vern only means well.... but sometimes I fear he's taking out too many of the quirks and odds that make MM so wonderful... even if most of them were never intended. 
To think that I have to go thru all my mansions and dig out all the levers makes me want to cry.....!


It probably won't cheer you up, but I think I wrote a Perl script back then that detects each case. It would take very little effort to modify the script to move each lever up a little, and  report the room. I'm not sure - I may have already done this and forgotten.

The odd thing about this change is that I don't believe it was in response to your mansions. There was some other issue that was happening, that he had been trying to fix. I can remember being surprised that the levers were broken in the mansions I saw them in. It makes me wonder if this could be addressed through custom graphics instead.

Thanks for the new German word - I love that about the German language. There are lots of words like that. It's been too long since I was last there. I miss it.


Quote:

Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:16:41:
- Some mansions used portions of the ladder in unusually decorative ways. They ended up not resembling ladders whatsoever. The new game doesn't allow these ladder pieces to work, which broke a few puzzles.

- The behavior of some of the disappearing platforms changed so that if you jumped from a disappearing platform from one screen onto a floating platform in another screen, that platform might not be there to land on.


That sounds not good......   I might have used a feature like that once in a while.


Maybe, I'll have to check my notes if I still have them. I don't think this happened as much as anyone thought. I was a little surprised that Vern changed this behavior. I forget the rationale.



Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by SandyBean on 30.04.2012 at 00:38:12
Thanks Everyone for enjoying the pic of Shasta (our dog) and her new puppies ! [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

I also want to say thanks to Rob and the others that converted as many CMs as possible, it was a lot of work, and well done.  Understandable that some of the CM's with special graphics/effects, etc could not be done at this time.

Since my computer skills are very limited, I don't think I'll be able to convert my CM "Immortal Ruins" via the explanations and programs so kindly and well explained by Rob, I'm just not computer savvy enough.  It's not a big deal, I'm sure it won't be missed ! 

Can't wait AquaMat if you do take the time to convert your CM's, (I've played ALL the mansions from MM1, MM2 and MMHD over again, as I'm desperate for some 'fun time' !!!)

Also can't wait to see new mansions being built and finished, in the builders/editors that are presently available. 

Take care everyone, and our MM community is Vunderbar !
SandyBean [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Semi-Native on 30.04.2012 at 01:34:24
SandyBean, Immortal Ruins certainly is missed in HD. It's a fun mansion, even if my Jack does get a bit paranoid when he's lost behind walls.  ;D

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 30.04.2012 at 13:05:41
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 30.04.2012 at 07:46:47
In the meantime I have consulted that list of MM1 mansions which are HD-ready or HD-compatible and I was considerably shocked to find that there are really only 3 mansions of mine (out of what - 15 or 16 I had released) on that list (I'm counting the two Faces versions and the two Palace of Gore versions as only one mansion each).

I didn't know it was that few......   the whole affair seems to be more problematic than I thought.

I find it especially sad that those designs which I consider to be my best efforts, namely THE FOUR TUBES, THE BIRDCAGE and THE COMPLEX, are not among them.

What a cryin' shame....    :o    :(    >:(


Rob, one more question:  what did you and the other designers use when preparing the all-new designs for the HD version ??
I certainly can't imagine you went thru all that trouble of designing in the old editor and than replacing all parts using your described Rezycle method ?!

So I reckon you must have built some sort of tool for yourselves to help you make those new designs ?


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 30.04.2012 at 10:21:50

aquaMat wrote on 30.04.2012 at 07:46:47:
In the meantime I have consulted that list of MM1 mansions which are HD-ready or HD-compatible and I was considerably shocked to find that there are really only 3 mansions of mine (out of what - 15 or 16 I had released) on that list (I'm counting the two Faces versions and the two Palace of Gore versions as only one mansion each).

I didn't know it was that few......   the whole affair seems to be more problematic than I thought.


I'm not sure it's as bad as you think. I could have sworn that there were some that didn't need as much work as others in terms of graphics conversion. I think it's also worth seeing if we can do something about those levers with graphics. Between new graphics and a script to do most of the lever moving, that wouldn't be too big a deal.


Quote:
I find it especially sad that those designs which I consider to be my best efforts, namely THE FOUR TUBES, THE BIRDCAGE and THE COMPLEX, are not among them.


Ugh... you're right. I do remember some of those. When we were going through them, we went through them fast. I think the whole effort took 1-2 weeks. I didn't really stop and dwell on it too much.


Quote:
Rob, one more question:  what did you and the other designers use when preparing the all-new designs for the HD version ?? I certainly can't imagine you went thru all that trouble of designing in the old editor and than replacing all parts using your described Rezycle method ?!

So I reckon you must have built some sort of tool for yourselves to help you make those new designs?


No. We used the old editor, which was actually a pretty big hassle. All the mansions in the HD game get stored in the old way. That is the only way they can be edited - aside from some really experimental stuff I've been doing. Prior to shipping, the original formats have to be converted using rezycle. Generally, this is pretty easy. Occasionally, one or two custom graphics may have to be added after Rezycle has unpacked everything. Fortunately, there are not many custom graphics in the new game. Jacob redid *all* the graphics though.

What this meant is that if you worked on the mansion, you had to work on it as though you building a mansion for MM1, then to see what your changes looked like, you would then have to convert it, and open it as a mansion (or custom mansion) in the new game. As you can imagine, this was a little tedious. Because the mansion and the builder were working off of different files, I could bring up the game and the old builder at the same time and flip back and forth between the two windows.

I did end building out some tools, but they were command line based. I wrote a few Perl scripts to help me quickly identify potential or known issues. I didn't actually build any new mansions for the game. That was done by Toybox, Jacob, and Vern. I ended up scrubbing all the existing "included" mansions. Scrubbing included:

- Finding and correcting any odd Layer 6 issues

These fixes were areas were for areas where the illusion was spoiled. For example, a short pillar in layer that "supported" the ceiling above it. There were many, many areas where Jack would be "behind" the pillar, jump, and then appear in front of the tiles the pillar was supporting. This sort of thing spoils the illusion and tends to look "weird" to the eye. There were lots of different cases here, that were dealt with in various ways. Some of this was easy, some was a bit more work.

- Removing *most* designer-painted shadows

I was sure that this would be the most controversial of the changes, yet I don't recall anything getting upset. Vern added game-generated shadows to MM HD. These shadows generally look better than the painted in shadows because they more closely resemble the item that casts the shadow, and there is a bit more consistency. I believe that tiles in layers 4 and 6 will cast shadows, initially only in rooms with a black background. Otherwise, Birds and other creatures could cast "shadows" on the sky background image, which looked strange. Game generated shadows can also be disabled in newer versions of the old Builder.

This probably should be disabled by default for all custom mansions, because I can tell you first-hand that removing most of the designer-added shadows was tedious in the extreme. If you don't remove them, then the game will add shadows on top of areas where the developer already painted them in. These areas will be darker than what the designer intended, slight ruining the effect. Areas that were shaded may become black outright.

- Correcting some block inconsistencies

There are basically two kinds of Bricks most often used in Layer 4. You have the bricks that are smart enough to "assemble" themselves when you are painting them in. There are others for each color that have to be manually and painstakingly assembled. In the past, these two types were mixed together in some places. The problem with this is that Vern applies some sort of logic to the "smart" bricks while slightly and somewhat randomly alters their appearance to add some variety and keep things from looking too uniform. It's a very nice effect that I was skeptical about at first.
The problem is that if you mix and match the "smart" bricks with the others, then it noticeably throws off the effect. This was among my least favorite things to fix, because it was tough to detect i the MM1 Builder.

- Taking a first cut to see how the mansions appeared with the new graphics.

kind of self-explanatory. By the end, I was getting pretty sick of looking at all the mansions. For some reason, it was a *lot* more work that I thought it was going to be. I hope some of this make sense. Feel free to ask if it's not clear.

Doing some of this low-level stuff, freed Vern up to do the bigger things that only he could do. It definitely gave me some motivation to play around with a new Builder. The old Builder has frustrated me for quite a while now. Shortly after doing the initial conversion on the custom mansions, my work load and responsibilities on my day job picked up in a big way - limited what I was able to do during my off time.



Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 30.04.2012 at 11:23:51

SandyBean wrote on 29.04.2012 at 05:55:52:
The last mansion built was for MM2, and was by me...I'm really honoured (LoL !), but seriously was hoping there would be some new ones by now. 


I'm the most bummed out about MM2. I *really* liked the capabilities that were available to mansion builders in this game, and was disappointed that it didn't have as long a shelf life as it should have. As much as I like the new game with it's graphics, I *loved* the gameplay in MM2 better.



Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 30.04.2012 at 13:04:52
aquamat -

  You know, aside from all the levers, I think many of your mansions could probably be fixed without too much effort. I just looked through a bunch of them, and many of the custom graphics you use are reused from mansion to mansion, and most of these are just slightly recolored versions of the original graphics. Some look like images you got from somewhere else, and added to a frame. If you knew where to find the originals, you could probably reuse them, only with a better resolution. Here's some that I looked at:

The level of difficulty I'd assign to fixing each mansion is in parentheses near each mansion name.

Underground Fortress - (Minor changes) Levers don't work; signs are fine; no custom graphics. I need to find my scripts. I have one that could lift the levers up a few pixels (configurable), and report the room numbers so the changes could be verified. My recommendation would be to initially move the levers up and re-release it for HD. Then at a later time, take a look at modifying the new lever graphics to look the way you wish. It shouldn't be too bad.

Les Catacombs Rouges - (Minor changes) 1 custom graphic that looks it was derived from other bricks in original game. Similar sort of construction be done from new graphics. This custom graphic is also used in several other mansions as well. So fixing it here simplifies others a little bit. The description should be moved from resource fork using Rezilla so that it doesn't need to be fixed each time the fork is unpacked using Rezycle.

Perpetuum Mobile - (Minor/Medium changes) Signs are fine; four custom graphics. 1 is a dupe from Les Catacombs Rouges (easy to replace), if you can get the original images for 00863, and 00875 they should be easy to replace. The last one - 00251 will need to be redone completely.

The Birdcage - (Minor/Medium - depending on how many images were already converted for other mansions) 5 custom images; 00128, 00130, 00131 (Jack colored differently) looks like the same images found in Discotheque of Doom; these should be redone using the new graphics as a base. It looks like they were just recolored anyway. Probably not too hard. 00706 was the same as in Les Catacombs Rouges and Perpetuum Mobile (looks easy to replace). 00707 doesn't look too difficult either.

The Complex - - (Medium) Text is fine; 6 custom images. Jack is Green Blue (00128, 00130, 00131) These will have to be redone using new graphics as base. 00707 same from other mansions; 00221 and 01014 look easy to redo. Remove descriptions

The Four Tubes - (Medium/Hard); Text is fine; 10 custom images; No repeats I think.

The Void -  (Minor/Med) Text is fine; 2 custom images (00701, 00707) - both dupes from the Complex & other mansions; removed descriptions

I'm trying to locate the scripts I wrote several months ago. Some of these would be very helpful in finding all the problematic levers and/or fixing them. Many of the ones I listed here may have lever problems. I think most of your custom images will be far easier that some of the ones I've seen for other mansions.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by josephine on 30.04.2012 at 16:00:29
@ SandyBean:

omgPUPPIES!!!  :-* (x11)

And I like Immortal Ruins- it's a nice size (not too big or small) with a good balance of exploring vs puzzles.


@ aquamat:

Here's an idea- how about modifying your unfinished rooms/mansions and adding them to Catacombs? Lots of people are still replaying MM1 (me included!) Kickstarting Catacombs (or Catacombs in MM2) may encourage builders to add their unfinished mansions too.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by gonzo on 01.05.2012 at 02:05:31
WOW to @ALL!!!  :D

I'm very happy and impressed about the NEW and really constructive discussion about converting the custom mansions.
This is --- since a very long time --- the first discussion which is fun AND interesting and make me believe that the community isn't fall into a mummy sleep ;-)

And like me - I know this very well - everyone of you have many other things to do and even therefore I'm very impressed about your engagement!!!

I'm not a diligent writer here, but I'm playing this "BEST GAME EVER" (for me ...!!!) since several years and I read all the posts here and follow all of the discussions very closely.

But ...  YES! ... I'm an outsider. I never designed such a wonderful mansions like DoD and all of the other wonderful mansions of all the other designers --> YOU!!!

I pull my hat down and bow to all of you wonderful creative designers of the MM Game.

Thanks to You for all the wonderful work, fun, creativity and engagement!!

Thanks to all of You!

Gonzo


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 01.05.2012 at 02:47:25
Regarding Immortal Ruins, what room(s) do you start seeing the custom backgrounds? I "unpacked" the mansion using Rezycle, and was able to play a good chunk of it. I kept the Data directory next to the unpacked mansion directory to see if the game would find the custom backgrounds. I wasn't sure if there was an easy to get to room that used one of the custom backgrounds so I could test it.

Otherwise, it *is* playable. It could be that it works fine, I don't know for sure. I did spot a graphical glitch on there that I don't think is mansion related - I think it's game related, that I'm going to report to Vern. It wasn't anything major, and didn't prevent the game from being played.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 01.05.2012 at 10:00:57

Quote:
In German we have a slang word for that: verschlimmbessern.


I really love this - that there's a word for it. My wife will say "It's New and Improved," or "Look, they *improved* it, how nice.." extremely sarcastically, sometimes while rolling her eyes, and it communicates exactly the same feeling.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 01.05.2012 at 17:40:08

Rob Seegel wrote on 01.05.2012 at 02:47:25:
Regarding Immortal Ruins, what room(s) do you start seeing the custom backgrounds? I "unpacked" the mansion using Rezycle, and was able to play a good chunk of it. I kept the Data directory next to the unpacked mansion directory to see if the game would find the custom backgrounds. I wasn't sure if there was an easy to get to room that used one of the custom backgrounds so I could test it.

Otherwise, it *is* playable. It could be that it works fine, I don't know for sure. I did spot a graphical glitch on there that I don't think is mansion related - I think it's game related, that I'm going to report to Vern. It wasn't anything major, and didn't prevent the game from being played.


Perhaps we should convert and upload those CM's that are playable despite of the not converted custom graphics?

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 01.05.2012 at 19:09:35
That would be great! I am missing aguamats mansions!!!!

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 01.05.2012 at 21:12:17

rose wrote on 01.05.2012 at 19:09:35:
That would be great! I am missing aguamats mansions!!!!


I did a few tests and custom backgrounds don't work. I probably knew that but forgot. Still, I think for some mansions this will only have a small impact. It won't impact many of aquamat's since most don't use custom backgrounds. Whether it greatly impacts Immortal Ruins is up to SandyBean. Otherwise, I'd be up for uploading it, because it plays mostly fine without the various backgrounds. As I mentioned before - I did notice another graphical glitch in other rooms, but it didn't cause the game to crash or make it unplayable.

With aquamat's, it's kind of a mixed bag. All the mansions where the levers have been submerged so that the base is no longer visible are now unplayable. In some of those mansions there are a *lot* of levers. I am still looking for my set of scripts. I thought I had one which would identify all these cases and optionally fix them. So these shouldn't be converted without at least that change.

The mansions where there is only one or two custom graphics, seems to me like maybe it wouldn't be too bad without them in order to get another playable mansion out there. Aquamat may feel differently. As I said, for mansions where it is just one or two graphics, it's probably fine depending on which images they are. For other mansions where there are 5 or more, I think the changes start to drastically impact the look and feel, but still if the mansion designer is Ok with it - at least temporarily, then why not?

With the remaining mansions, we should at least try to contact the designers first. I'm fairly certain that Anthony would *not* wish his mansions to be modified by anyone else - especially the ones that use extensive custom graphics. Some of these would be completely ruined without the custom graphics, IMO.


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 02.05.2012 at 15:27:19

rose wrote on 29.04.2012 at 15:12:55:

Rob Seegel wrote on 29.04.2012 at 14:19:46:

rose wrote on 29.04.2012 at 13:38:53:
You can convert pict files in Preview to png!!! Though I don't think you can batch convert.


You know, I *thought* you could do this, but when I tried it only allowed me to export as .pdf. Perhaps this changed in Lion? I had to look for other alternatives.

No, I don't have Lion and will not buy Lion either. You have to use the Save as, where you can choose the format. How you do in Lion I don't know. It is probably File > Duplicate, File > save as???


I don't believe that it can be done with Preview in Lion. I tried using my other laptop with Snow Leopard and PNG is also not an option. There are some other formats though (more than Lion). Fortunately, I don't need to rely on Preview for conversion.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 02.05.2012 at 18:45:34

Rob Seegel wrote on 01.05.2012 at 21:12:17:
With the remaining mansions, we should at least try to contact the designers first. I'm fairly certain that Anthony would *not* wish his mansions to be modified by anyone else - especially the ones that use extensive custom graphics. Some of these would be completely ruined without the custom graphics, IMO.


Neither would JoeB

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 02.05.2012 at 20:48:18
aquaMat - I made an attempt at re-creating a few of your custom graphics so that they blend in with MM HD. I created ones that were reused in a few mansions, and were based on existing game graphics so they weren't too bad to do.

The email bounced when I tried to send them, though. It's not as though there were that many images or they were particularly large.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 03.05.2012 at 01:53:55
@ Rob Seegel (and all others):

I could not be online yesterday and I am surprised how many new posts have arrived in the meantime.
Please allow me  a little time until I have read them all carefully and then I will reply in detail.
Rob, thank you especially for taking the time and trying a few things out.....

I'll be back again later.....

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by SandyBean on 03.05.2012 at 04:07:39
I would love to see more of AquaMats CM's converted, I'm desperate for more play time, and have played ALL the mansions twice over now in all formats ! 8-) ;D

@ Rob; thanks So Much for your input on IR, would it be too much to ask if you could convert it over to HD  (I'm not sure how) ... ONLY when and IF you have time.  If it's playable without the custom graphics, that's perfectly fine with me !  :-*

Also, thanks everyone, for the renewed MM Family forum enthusiasm, support of IR, and congrats sent to our ever growing and beautiful Puppies !!!

take care,

SandyBean  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 03.05.2012 at 06:23:12
@ SandyBean

OK, I'll go ahead and convert it, there's no major reason why folks shouldn't be able to play it. Technically, all someone would have to do to get the backgrounds would be to put them in the game directory, replacing (and hopefully backing up) the originals, but I have a *really* hard time recommending something that I didn't like doing myself for MM1 years ago.

I'm sure that in time, we'll be able to add those custom backgrounds back in. I've asked Vern about it, and hopefully I'll get a response soon. My thinking is even if the builder is a bit delayed it would be nice to at least be able to play all the existing mansions. The only thing truly missing is support for custom backgrounds. For everything else there is a way forward. A difficult way, perhaps, but still a way.

I'll take of it tonight, when I get home.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 03.05.2012 at 09:16:30

Rob Seegel wrote on 30.04.2012 at 10:21:50:
(...) (removed my old quote from your quote)

I'm not sure it's as bad as you think. I could have sworn that there were some that didn't need as much work as others in terms of graphics conversion. I think it's also worth seeing if we can do something about those levers with graphics. Between new graphics and a script to do most of the lever moving, that wouldn't be too big a deal.


That sounds good. It'll be great if it turned out to be less work than I fear at the moment. And it'd be fantastic if we could somehow 'save' my 'buried levers'.... !!


Rob Seegel wrote on 30.04.2012 at 10:21:50:

Quote:
Rob, one more question:  what did you and the other designers use when preparing the all-new designs for the HD version ?? I certainly can't imagine you went thru all that trouble of designing in the old editor and than replacing all parts using your described Rezycle method ?!

So I reckon you must have built some sort of tool for yourselves to help you make those new designs?


No. We used the old editor, which was actually a pretty big hassle. All the mansions in the HD game get stored in the old way. That is the only way they can be edited - aside from some really experimental stuff I've been doing. Prior to shipping, the original formats have to be converted using rezycle. Generally, this is pretty easy. Occasionally, one or two custom graphics may have to be added after Rezycle has unpacked everything. Fortunately, there are not many custom graphics in the new game. Jacob redid *all* the graphics though.

What this meant is that if you worked on the mansion, you had to work on it as though you building a mansion for MM1, then to see what your changes looked like, you would then have to convert it, and open it as a mansion (or custom mansion) in the new game. As you can imagine, this was a little tedious. Because the mansion and the builder were working off of different files, I could bring up the game and the old builder at the same time and flip back and forth between the two windows.


Ohmygawd......  that sounds really tedious indeed. I would have thought you'd have had a 'not-meant-for-release-version' of a HD-editor at least.....  but like this it sure sounds like hard work.


Rob Seegel wrote on 30.04.2012 at 10:21:50:
I did end building out some tools, but they were command line based. I wrote a few Perl scripts to help me quickly identify potential or known issues. I didn't actually build any new mansions for the game. That was done by Toybox, Jacob, and Vern. I ended up scrubbing all the existing "included" mansions. Scrubbing included:

- Finding and correcting any odd Layer 6 issues

These fixes were areas were for areas where the illusion was spoiled. For example, a short pillar in layer that "supported" the ceiling above it. There were many, many areas where Jack would be "behind" the pillar, jump, and then appear in front of the tiles the pillar was supporting. This sort of thing spoils the illusion and tends to look "weird" to the eye. There were lots of different cases here, that were dealt with in various ways. Some of this was easy, some was a bit more work.


I can't stand these kind of things, either.... but to be very precise in those areas is something I had to learn over time....  so while probably all of my mansions from the last 4 years or so should be very exact + correct in this respect, it might be possible to detect some of those layer-mistakes (or rather: design flaws) in some of my very early mansions like PoG, SPoG or DoD.
In fact - while checking DoD in the old editor 2 days ago (to see what amount of custom graphics it features) I in fact came across at least 2 situations where a roof should have been painted into layer-6 (but was in layer-4)


Rob Seegel wrote on 30.04.2012 at 10:21:50:
- Removing *most* designer-painted shadows

I was sure that this would be the most controversial of the changes, yet I don't recall anything getting upset. Vern added game-generated shadows to MM HD. These shadows generally look better than the painted in shadows because they more closely resemble the item that casts the shadow, and there is a bit more consistency. I believe that tiles in layers 4 and 6 will cast shadows, initially only in rooms with a black background. Otherwise, Birds and other creatures could cast "shadows" on the sky background image, which looked strange. Game generated shadows can also be disabled in newer versions of the old Builder.

This probably should be disabled by default for all custom mansions, because I can tell you first-hand that removing most of the designer-added shadows was tedious in the extreme. If you don't remove them, then the game will add shadows on top of areas where the developer already painted them in. These areas will be darker than what the designer intended, slight ruining the effect. Areas that were shaded may become black outright.


Luckily I only rarely  painted / designed in shadows myself.....


Rob Seegel wrote on 30.04.2012 at 10:21:50:
- Correcting some block inconsistencies

There are basically two kinds of Bricks most often used in Layer 4. You have the bricks that are smart enough to "assemble" themselves when you are painting them in. There are others for each color that have to be manually and painstakingly assembled. In the past, these two types were mixed together in some places. The problem with this is that Vern applies some sort of logic to the "smart" bricks while slightly and somewhat randomly alters their appearance to add some variety and keep things from looking too uniform. It's a very nice effect that I was skeptical about at first.
The problem is that if you mix and match the "smart" bricks with the others, then it noticeably throws off the effect. This was among my least favorite things to fix, because it was tough to detect i the MM1 Builder..

Here I am afraid I'd be guilty - simply BECAUSE I am so keen on graphic details I used to plant each individual brick by hand most of the time - and I am sure there might be enough situations where I used both types next to each other.... but when I did, I did that exactly FOR the "irregularity effect" - and I always double checked how it looked. It always looked great in the original game..... but I have no idea how it will "translate" into the HD-version...!?!


Rob Seegel wrote on 30.04.2012 at 10:21:50:
- Taking a first cut to see how the mansions appeared with the new graphics.

kind of self-explanatory. By the end, I was getting pretty sick of looking at all the mansions. For some reason, it was a *lot* more work that I thought it was going to be. I hope some of this make sense. Feel free to ask if it's not clear.

(...)


Yes, I can very well imagine how that added up to a pretty frustrating bunch of work.... and that you eventually ran out of time  and nerves to continue....

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 03.05.2012 at 09:22:17
Sorry for replying to some of your posts a bit randomly (= not in the order you have sent them....) though I had started w/ the earliest one below..... this is one of your latest ones:


Rob Seegel wrote on 02.05.2012 at 20:48:18:
aquaMat - I made an attempt at re-creating a few of your custom graphics so that they blend in with MM HD. I created ones that were reused in a few mansions, and were based on existing game graphics so they weren't too bad to do.

The email bounced when I tried to send them, though. It's not as though there were that many images or they were particularly large.


Wow, fantastic - good to hear that !!
BUT: What do you mean when you say 'the email bounced when (you) tried to send them' ??  Did you try to send them to me or where ?

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 03.05.2012 at 09:59:37

Rob Seegel wrote on 01.05.2012 at 21:12:17:

rose wrote on 01.05.2012 at 19:09:35:
That would be great! I am missing aguamats mansions!!!!


I did a few tests and custom backgrounds don't work. I probably knew that but forgot. Still, I think for some mansions this will only have a small impact. It won't impact many of aquamat's since most don't use custom backgrounds. Whether it greatly impacts Immortal Ruins is up to SandyBean. Otherwise, I'd be up for uploading it, because it plays mostly fine without the various backgrounds. As I mentioned before - I did notice another graphical glitch in other rooms, but it didn't cause the game to crash or make it unplayable.

With aquamat's, it's kind of a mixed bag. All the mansions where the levers have been submerged so that the base is no longer visible are now unplayable. In some of those mansions there are a *lot* of levers. I am still looking for my set of scripts. I thought I had one which would identify all these cases and optionally fix them. So these shouldn't be converted without at least that change.

The mansions where there is only one or two custom graphics, seems to me like maybe it wouldn't be too bad without them in order to get another playable mansion out there. Aquamat may feel differently. As I said, for mansions where it is just one or two graphics, it's probably fine depending on which images they are. For other mansions where there are 5 or more, I think the changes start to drastically impact the look and feel, but still if the mansion designer is Ok with it - at least temporarily, then why not?

With the remaining mansions, we should at least try to contact the designers first. I'm fairly certain that Anthony would *not* wish his mansions to be modified by anyone else - especially the ones that use extensive custom graphics. Some of these would be completely ruined without the custom graphics, IMO.


First things first:

1. It's true, I hardly ever used custom backgrounds (maybe once or twice at max., my guess would be if at all it's in DoD).  But nevertheless it's a shame that they no longer work. But that can't be too big of an issue, to make them work again, at least I would think so. 

2. As for those levers: wouldn't it be easiest to convince Vern to either UNDO  his lever 'improvement' to how it used to be (= allowing levers to be buried and still work)  OR at least - like some of the other improved / changed features - make it choosable for the designer (on a per-mansion basis) whether the mansion in question allows levers to be buried or not ??
I really can't see a real reason for a lever 'improvement' that prohbits these lowered / buried levers anyway.

A potential (although less 'funny') alternative would be to simply add another lever-design to the catalog of sprites, one which simply does NOT have a base at all.... so when used would look almost like the buried ones.  (I say 'almost' and 'less funny' because it wouldn't really look buried since it'll probably be just as long as the ones with bases.....whereas the buried ones are 1 unit shorter in size).

However, this third alternative would certainly be the easiest route to go, programming-wise.

BTW: In one of my hardest mansions, JUMP!, I even came up with the "upside-down - lever", which is hanging from the ceiling and can still be pulled by Jack. I was very proud of that..... and I bet my a#s this will definitely not work any longer, right ?!

3. As for the use of custom graphics in my mansions:
Indeed, if I remember correctly, the mansions where I really used several custom graphics, aren't all that many.
There are a lot of mansions where I didn't use any custom graphics at all, and several where I only slightly changed the look of Jack.

There are a few though, like DoD, where the custom graphics are essential to the gaming experience and/or the theme of the mansion. In DoD for example you have custom BBBs (including custom 70s-style text boards that appear when you activate / read a BBB), you have custom paintings and other disco-related design objects, including dancers etc. Most important are probably the changed bricks, platforms etc.  But in most later mansions (say from 2008 onward) I rather tried to work with the tools (sprites, bricks etc.) we're given and (ab-)use and/or conform them for my purpose than use too much custom graphics.

Some mansions feature both approaches, like THE FOUR TUBES, which does include 1 sort of custom bricks (lemon-colored), several custom paintings and maybe 1 or 2 other custom-bits.  That should be manageable.....

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 03.05.2012 at 10:17:30

josephine wrote on 30.04.2012 at 16:00:29:
@ (...)
[color=#ff0000]@ aquamat:

Here's an idea- how about modifying your unfinished rooms/mansions and adding them to Catacombs? Lots of people are still replaying MM1 (me included!) Kickstarting Catacombs (or Catacombs in MM2) may encourage builders to add their unfinished mansions too.


@ Josephine:

I don't think that would make sense, mainly because
1. All of these half- or almost-finished mansions of mine have a distinct theme (and look) of their own which would not fit or suit Catacomb's theme and look.
2. Most of those mansions are already in their unfinished state way bigger than the usual Catacombs section.
3. Several of them include custom graphics, which - as far as I remember - were not allowed in Catacombs.

But this idea of yours has some potential nevertheless..... I maybe should consider combining several of the unfinished creations into one larger construct. It still might take a fair amount of work....and it surely wouldn't look very elegant, and I'd probably hesitate to make it a proper release..... BUT it could be something for that "unofficial releases list" that we used to have. (BTW, is that still active ?)

Thanks for bringing it up..... I'll think about it.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 03.05.2012 at 10:24:42
One other question:

I can very well remember that there always used to be the possibility to later (re-)edit one of my own posts after it had already been published (e.g. when you detect an error or typo days later etc.)..... but somehow I can't find that EDIT button any longer.

Has it vanished or am I completely sitting on my eyes now ?
:-[    :-/

I have found at least two typos in earlier posts of mine I'd like to correct.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 03.05.2012 at 10:34:05

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:16:30:
Yes, I can very well imagine how that added up to a pretty frustrating bunch of work.... and that you eventually ran out of time  and nerves to continue....


It's probably not as bad as I made it sound. It was a load of work, but a lot of it was self-imposed. I didn't have to by hyper critical about the L6 issues, and a lot of it definitely got easier with practice. I learned a heck of a lot about when and when L6 should probably be used. My own personal take on it is that if it can't be used convincingly and well, then it's more trouble than it's worth - similar to 3D used in movies. Otherwise it's irritating and takes you out of the game.

The admins did *none* of the things I described with the custom mansions. These sorts of changes were to be left to designers if they felt they needed them. They were things that largely amounted to eye candy and were not deal-breakers.

The one I worry most about is the new shadows. Very wisely only enabled it when the Black background was used. So, this will cut out a lot of ways in which it could look horrible. I *mostly* like the new shadows, though there are places where you need to be careful as a designer.

Let's say you have the same "flat" tile used in multiple layers (Layer 1 and Layer 6 and/or Layer 4) You might do this if you want to make some object "invisible" - coins, keys, etc. In the game if game generated shadows are active in that room, it will spoil the illusion, unless the tiles are black on black. The layers that are hiding the object will cast a shadow. The newest Builder (that only works on Snow Leopard and earlier provides you with an option to disable the shadows.

The only other way shadows are a nuisance will be if you have a very carefully designed mansion with lots of painted shadows. It can be awful to see all that work marred by the generated shadows. Generally, having game generated shadows saves a lot of design time, and looks pretty good - in some ways better than hand-painted ones, and in some ways worse.


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 03.05.2012 at 10:44:37

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:16:30:
Here I am afraid I'd be guilty - simply BECAUSE I am so keen on graphic details I used to plant each individual brick by hand most of the time - and I am sure there might be enough situations where I used both types next to each other.... but when I did, I did that exactly FOR the "irregularity effect" - and I always double checked how it looked. It always looked great in the original game..... but I have no idea how it will "translate" into the HD-version...!?!


I wouldn't worry too much about this too much. It took me a while to see what Vern was talking about. Once I did, I started seeing it everywhere. It was pretty rough going in Knight Mansion and Spider Palace though. I had to redo a few screens in early sections that had all of these intricate weaving patterns in the stonework. Not fun. :) but I can smile now looking back on it.

One thing that's interesting about the dynamic brick coloring is that it's generated each time go from room to room, regardless of how many times you visit the room.  Pay close attention to when you leave a screen, then return - if you look carefully you'll see the color patterns shift and change each time you visit the same room. It's a very striking effect, but a little distracting once you start to notice it.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 03.05.2012 at 10:53:27

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:22:17:
Sorry for replying to some of your posts a bit randomly (= not in the order you have sent them....) though I had started w/ the earliest one below..... this is one of your latest ones:


Rob Seegel wrote on 02.05.2012 at 20:48:18:
aquaMat - I made an attempt at re-creating a few of your custom graphics so that they blend in with MM HD. I created ones that were reused in a few mansions, and were based on existing game graphics so they weren't too bad to do.

The email bounced when I tried to send them, though. It's not as though there were that many images or they were particularly large.


Wow, fantastic - good to hear that !!
BUT: What do you mean when you say 'the email bounced when (you) tried to send them' ??  Did you try to send them to me or where ?


I sent the email, and got a response saying that the server had rejected it. I'll try again, and put the images in a zip file.

I was going to volunteer to help you out. I could work on those graphics which were based on existing graphics. Obviously you'd have final say on any graphic and could modify anything I provide as you see fit. I'd be absolutely fine with that. The idea would be to help you do whatever is necessary to get your mansions converted. This would leave you free to work on those graphics that are based on images that only you have (maybe), or would leave you to choose others. Mostly, I'm talking about images in picture frames here.

Even with my help, there would still be a good amount of work to do.

I've also been working on the lever graphics. All the levers would have to be moved back up. However, we'd use different images for those layers so it would look as though they were poking up through slots in the ground - not so different from how it looked before. The nice thing is that the new levers could be reused through-out all your machines if you wished.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:59:37:
2. As for those levers: wouldn't it be easiest to convince Vern to either UNDO  his lever 'improvement' to how it used to be (= allowing levers to be buried and still work)  OR at least - like some of the other improved / changed features - make it choosable for the designer (on a per-mansion basis) whether the mansion in question allows levers to be buried or not ??


You could try, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. Why? It's not a wide-spread issue. It's focused on only your mansions. There are a lot, admittedly, but still a small number overall in the total number. Keep in mind, the change wasn't done to specifically mess up your mansions. We (the testers) only realized that after the fact.

- Here are other things affected: gold/silver block lever jumps: Times when Jack pulls a lever that toggles the blocks from silver to gold. The way it used to be, Jack would get a last jump even if the block underneath him changed. Vern didn't care for that - and never has. I actually like that effect. The silver/gold blocks are one of my favorite elements in the game, and I like(d) this trick. I believe this was *one* of the things he wanted to prevent.

- I'm not sure if it's possible to pull a lever that is suspended in space from a moving (or falling) platform passing by. I think it isn't.

- There was at least one other case where a Jack managed to move a lever while leaping mid-air and I think it resulted in a bizarre situation. Well, not any more.

Fixing these and possibly other issues related to the levers took time, and a few attempts if I recall correctly. When it was pointed out that the buried levers didn't work, Vern seemed regretful, but more along the lines that he had ever allowed it, not that he was considering changing it back. That's how I remember it anyway.


Quote:
A potential (although less 'funny') alternative would be to simply add another lever-design to the catalog of sprites, one which simply does NOT have a base at all.... so when used would look almost like the buried ones.  (I say 'almost' and 'less funny' because it wouldn't really look buried since it'll probably be just as long as the ones with bases.....whereas the buried ones are 1 unit shorter in size).


I think this is the right way to proceed personally, because it gets you the effect you desire without having to wait for a programming fix which is unlikely to come. I've already started reworking the graphics. The effect might be easier that what you think. I created a selection in the graphic around the levers, then I moved the selection down so that the bases were out of site - the same thing you did from within the game. Then I add on a "slot" for the levers so it will look like the levers are coming out of the "ground". The levers end up without a base, and lower, as they look when you shift them below the ground. I can finish up these images. As for the green base that gets superimposed. I modified it so that the entire image is transparent. As I said, I think this is the right way to go. What do you think?


Quote:
BTW: In one of my hardest mansions, JUMP!, I even came up with the "upside-down - lever", which is hanging from the ceiling and can still be pulled by Jack. I was very proud of that..... and I bet my a#s this will definitely not work any longer, right ?!
[quote]

Hmm... I'd have to see it. I don't remember. It *might* work. No sense wondering. It would be better to check to be sure.

[quote]
3. As for the use of custom graphics in my mansions:
Indeed, if I remember correctly, the mansions where I really used several custom graphics, aren't all that many.
There are a lot of mansions where I didn't use any custom graphics at all, and several where I only slightly changed the look of Jack.


Yes, your custom graphics have many things going for them that make it easier than it otherwise would have been.


Quote:
There are a few though, like DoD, where the custom graphics are essential to the gaming experience and/or the theme of the mansion. In DoD for example you have custom BBBs (including custom 70s-style text boards that appear when you activate / read a BBB), you have custom paintings and other disco-related design objects, including dancers etc. Most important are probably the changed bricks, platforms etc.  But in most later mansions (say from 2008 onward) I rather tried to work with the tools (sprites, bricks etc.) we're given and (ab-)use and/or conform them for my purpose than use too much custom graphics.


I would save DoD for last. It also uses some common graphics. The others will go quickly I think. You can take your time with DoD later. I think making slight changes to existing graphics was a very wise way to go, myself.


Quote:
Some mansions feature both approaches, like THE FOUR TUBES, which does include 1 sort of custom bricks (lemon-colored), several custom paintings and maybe 1 or 2 other custom-bits.  That should be manageable.....


Yeah, I agree based on what I've  looked at.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 03.05.2012 at 12:38:21
@SandyBean

I've got the mansion all ready to go, but ran out of time tonight. Sorry :( I'll make sure it goes out tomorrow. It was a long day...



Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Olle the Greatest on 03.05.2012 at 18:28:29

Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:
You could try, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. Why? It's not a wide-spread issue. It's focused on only your mansions. There are a lot, admittedly, but still a small number overall in the total number. Keep in mind, the change wasn't done to specifically mess up your mansions. We (the testers) only realized that after the fact.

- Here are other things affected: gold/silver block lever jumps: Times when Jack pulls a lever that toggles the blocks from silver to gold. The way it used to be, Jack would get a last jump even if the block underneath him changed. Vern didn't care for that - and never has. I actually like that effect. The silver/gold blocks are one of my favorite elements in the game, and I like(d) this trick. I believe this was *one* of the things he wanted to prevent.


I too use buried levers in some of my mansions (Luris for instance) and think they're a lot better looking than unburied

On the other hand I don't see the silver/gold-jumps not working, just played pompomrouge and had to do just that to make it through

Another thing though which doesn't work (I mentioned this when playing resort for retired gold hunters I think) is the appearing/disappearing platforms not being synced when Jack jumps from one room to another. The platforms are always off when Jack enters a room, making some rooms unplayable since he falls to his death

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 03.05.2012 at 21:33:49

Olle the Greatest wrote on 03.05.2012 at 18:28:29:
I too use buried levers in some of my mansions (Luris for instance) and think they're a lot better looking than unburied


OK - to each their own, I guess. I need to go back and look at the posts for MM HD testing to see why it was changed. I can see that burying it was an easy way to get rid of the base. I liked that it was smaller, but I think it looks a little strange sticking out behind the 3D block. I was working at modifying the graphic last night, and I think the change looks at least as good, if not better. It feels strange defending the change because I didn't feel strongly about it one way or another - still don't. I'd probably feel differently if I'd made several mansions where it was buried.

There's no harm in asking Vern about it - nothing ventured, nothing gained - right? Maybe he will change it back. Just because I think it's unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible. It may take a while for him to respond though. The last email I got from him mentioned he was a little behind on his email. He's normally pretty busy, but he's dealing with some personal issue.

He has said on occasion that if a behavior wasn't shown working a certain way in a tutorial or help, then it shouldn't be relied on and a player shouldn't be expected to know how to do it. My personal feeling about the buried lever is that the reason people do it is tied to aesthetics - nothing more. If a designer what's to change the look of something then there is a way of making that happen. I'll make the modifications to the levers available if you'd like to use them. It should give you the look you want, while preserving the behavior Vern wants (whatever the reason). Seems like a reasonable way forward to me.


On the other hand I don't see the silver/gold-jumps not working, just played pompomrouge and had to do just that to make it through


Huh. I'm not sure, I *thought* this was disabled as well. Maybe not in custom mansions. I don't know. I recall it being an issue during testing.


Another thing though which doesn't work (I mentioned this when playing resort for retired gold hunters I think) is the appearing/disappearing platforms not being synced when Jack jumps from one room to another. The platforms are always off when Jack enters a room, making some rooms unplayable since he falls to his death


Yeah. I knew about this one. Here's what Vern said about it initially:


Quote:
The reasoning is that designers can, for future mansions, rely on specific timing of the platforms, knowing that when the player enters a room, the platforms will always be starting at the same value. So they can put skeleton fish, spiders, or other obstacles in the room along with the disappearing floors, knowing that the timing will always be the same each time the player enters the room.

Since this would be a good improvement for the game, I'm wondering how many custom mansions would be messed up if the game is left as-is, and would it be hard to fix them?


In the end, he ended up compromising. The thick ghost platforms (as Brell calls them), or lightsaber platforms (as Vern calls them) were left unchanged I think. The thin ghost platforms (as Brell calls them) or retractable platforms (as I call them) were modified so that when Jack enters a room they are are always invisible to start with.




Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 04.05.2012 at 00:54:01

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 10:24:42:
One other question:

I can very well remember that there always used to be the possibility to later (re-)edit one of my own posts after it had already been published (e.g. when you detect an error or typo days later etc.)..... but somehow I can't find that EDIT button any longer.

Has it vanished or am I completely sitting on my eyes now ?
:-[    :-/

I have found at least two typos in earlier posts of mine I'd like to correct.


Hmm... don't you see a "modify" button in the upper right corner of each post?

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 04.05.2012 at 00:59:08

Olle the Greatest wrote on 03.05.2012 at 18:28:29:
On the other hand I don't see the silver/gold-jumps not working, just played pompomrouge and had to do just that to make it through

Another thing though which doesn't work (I mentioned this when playing resort for retired gold hunters I think) is the appearing/disappearing platforms not being synced when Jack jumps from one room to another. The platforms are always off when Jack enters a room, making some rooms unplayable since he falls to his death


Silver/gold-jump DO work in custom mansions but not the included ones.

I checked the Resort and made a very few changes to assure that Jack can jump between rooms and land safely on the thick ghost platform (needs timing).  I however did not make any changes in one of the gray rooms (with a thin platform) because after Vern's change the room is actually harder  [smiley=evil.gif]

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 04.05.2012 at 01:02:37
One more thing - since we are discussing som of the changes Vern made in MM HD:

I've said it before and I'll say it again that MM is Vern's game and it is totally up to him how he wants to present his game to us, the customers.  I, however, feel that his changes are not improving anything and in some instances they are reducing my innovativity as a builder.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 04.05.2012 at 05:53:15
@ Rob:
First of all, thank you so much for taking so much time to discuss all those issues here at length and even trying out / preparing things in the meantime. I really appreciate that.

Answers / comments to your thoughts below in-between the quotes.
(Again I answer your posts randomly, starting with this one):


Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:59:37:
2. As for those levers: wouldn't it be easiest to convince Vern to either UNDO  his lever 'improvement' to how it used to be (= allowing levers to be buried and still work)  OR at least - like some of the other improved / changed features - make it choosable for the designer (on a per-mansion basis) whether the mansion in question allows levers to be buried or not ??


You could try, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. Why? It's not a wide-spread issue. It's focused on only your mansions. There are a lot, admittedly, but still a small number overall in the total number. Keep in mind, the change wasn't done to specifically mess up your mansions. We (the testers) only realized that after the fact.

- Here are other things affected: gold/silver block lever jumps: Times when Jack pulls a lever that toggles the blocks from silver to gold. The way it used to be, Jack would get a last jump even if the block underneath him changed. Vern didn't care for that - and never has. I actually like that effect. The silver/gold blocks are one of my favorite elements in the game, and I like(d) this trick. I believe this was *one* of the things he wanted to prevent.


I also always liked it.


Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:
- I'm not sure if it's possible to pull a lever that is suspended in space from a moving (or falling) platform passing by. I think it isn't.

- There was at least one other case where a Jack managed to move a lever while leaping mid-air and I think it resulted in a bizarre situation. Well, not any more.

Fixing these and possibly other issues related to the levers took time, and a few attempts if I recall correctly. When it was pointed out that the buried levers didn't work, Vern seemed regretful, but more along the lines that he had ever allowed it, not that he was considering changing it back. That's how I remember it anyway.


Yes, I can very well imagine that. Without wanting to step on his toes, I know that Vern doesn't care too much for all the experimental quirks (including abusing bugs etc.) that we designers came up with....and although I can understand his point of view, I always felt he tends to forget that this aspect is exactly what kept the game and this community alive and vibrant for so long. Imagine all custom mansions would have looked like variations of - say -Nightmare Mansion, with no innovations, no stretching of the boundaries, no weirdness at all..... I doubt it would have been as exiting as it was / is for all those years. 
I think this applies to all (art) forms BTW, music (my main profession) being a prime example: everything that is too perfect tends to get boring quickly.....  so let's leave  enough imperfections in to keep it a bit rough !


Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

Quote:
A potential (although less 'funny') alternative would be to simply add another lever-design to the catalog of sprites, one which simply does NOT have a base at all.... so when used would look almost like the buried ones.  (I say 'almost' and 'less funny' because it wouldn't really look buried since it'll probably be just as long as the ones with bases.....whereas the buried ones are 1 unit shorter in size).


I think this is the right way to proceed personally, because it gets you the effect you desire without having to wait for a programming fix which is unlikely to come. I've already started reworking the graphics. The effect might be easier that what you think. I created a selection in the graphic around the levers, then I moved the selection down so that the bases were out of site - the same thing you did from within the game. Then I add on a "slot" for the levers so it will look like the levers are coming out of the "ground". The levers end up without a base, and lower, as they look when you shift them below the ground. I can finish up these images. As for the green base that gets superimposed. I modified it so that the entire image is transparent. As I said, I think this is the right way to go. What do you think?


I agree  - sounds like a good solution !


Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

Quote:
BTW: In one of my hardest mansions, JUMP!, I even came up with the "upside-down - lever", which is hanging from the ceiling and can still be pulled by Jack. I was very proud of that..... and I bet my a#s this will definitely not work any longer, right ?!


Hmm... I'd have to see it. I don't remember. It *might* work. No sense wondering. It would be better to check to be sure.

(…)

[quote]
There are a few though, like DoD, where the custom graphics are essential to the gaming experience and/or the theme of the mansion. In DoD for example you have custom BBBs (including custom 70s-style text boards that appear when you activate / read a BBB), you have custom paintings and other disco-related design objects, including dancers etc. Most important are probably the changed bricks, platforms etc.  But in most later mansions (say from 2008 onward) I rather tried to work with the tools (sprites, bricks etc.) we're given and (ab-)use and/or conform them for my purpose than use too much custom graphics.


I would save DoD for last. It also uses some common graphics. The others will go quickly I think. You can take your time with DoD later. I think making slight changes to existing graphics was a very wise way to go, myself. [/quote]

That's exactly what I had thought. 

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 04.05.2012 at 12:46:20

SandyBean wrote on 03.05.2012 at 04:07:39:
@ Rob; thanks So Much for your input on IR, would it be too much to ask if you could convert it over to HD  (I'm not sure how) ... ONLY when and IF you have time.  If it's playable without the custom graphics, that's perfectly fine with me !  :-*


SandyBean - Immortal Ruins has been converted and added. I left the custom backgrounds because they don't do any harm and I believe it's still possible to use the backgrounds the old way, so if someone wanted to update them they could. Sorry it took longer than I expected.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 04.05.2012 at 20:50:17

brell wrote on 04.05.2012 at 01:02:37:
One more thing - since we are discussing som of the changes Vern made in MM HD:

I've said it before and I'll say it again that MM is Vern's game and it is totally up to him how he wants to present his game to us, the customers.  I, however, feel that his changes are not improving anything and in some instances they are reducing my innovativity as a builder.


I'm completely with you on that, Brell.
Please see also what I said about this in my last post below, guided at Rob. ("Reply #59")

It was always BECAUSE of all the quirks and irregularities (and even bugs) in the original game  that we could come up with so many innovations, new twists etc. for so long - and they contributed a large part to why the game stayed fresh until today.

If those debatable "improvements" were only restricting our creativity for future designs it'd be bad enough - BUT there are several cases where the changes are responsible for screwing up old designs so they no longer work.... often without the resp. designer even knowing about it until someone stumbles over it.

There the real frustration starts......

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 04.05.2012 at 20:54:11

brell wrote on 04.05.2012 at 00:54:01:

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 10:24:42:
One other question:

I can very well remember that there always used to be the possibility to later (re-)edit one of my own posts after it had already been published (e.g. when you detect an error or typo days later etc.)..... but somehow I can't find that EDIT button any longer.
(...)


Hmm... don't you see a "modify" button in the upper right corner of each post?


No - I don't see it (anymore).
In the upper right corner all it says is "QUOTE" !

BTW, I'm using the olive-green design of the forums (but I always have, at least in the last few years.... and I don't know if that has got anything to do with that anyway...?!)   :-/

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Olle the Greatest on 05.05.2012 at 13:45:45

aquaMat wrote on 04.05.2012 at 20:54:11:
No - I don't see it (anymore).
In the upper right corner all it says is "QUOTE" !

BTW, I'm using the olive-green design of the forums (but I always have, at least in the last few years.... and I don't know if that has got anything to do with that anyway...?!)   :-/


seems like it's here even though I have olive green :)
Screen_Shot_2012-05-05_at_7_35_10_AM.png (34 KB | 307 )

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 05.05.2012 at 21:11:35

aquaMat wrote on 04.05.2012 at 20:54:11:

brell wrote on 04.05.2012 at 00:54:01:

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 10:24:42:
One other question:

I can very well remember that there always used to be the possibility to later (re-)edit one of my own posts after it had already been published (e.g. when you detect an error or typo days later etc.)..... but somehow I can't find that EDIT button any longer.
(...)


Hmm... don't you see a "modify" button in the upper right corner of each post?


No - I don't see it (anymore).
In the upper right corner all it says is "QUOTE" !

BTW, I'm using the olive-green design of the forums (but I always have, at least in the last few years.... and I don't know if that has got anything to do with that anyway...?!)   :-/


That is very strange indeed.  I don't know what is going on since everybody else seems to have it.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 05.05.2012 at 21:23:52

aquaMat wrote on 04.05.2012 at 20:50:17:

brell wrote on 04.05.2012 at 01:02:37:
One more thing - since we are discussing som of the changes Vern made in MM HD:

I've said it before and I'll say it again that MM is Vern's game and it is totally up to him how he wants to present his game to us, the customers.  I, however, feel that his changes are not improving anything and in some instances they are reducing my innovativity as a builder.


I'm completely with you on that, Brell.
Please see also what I said about this in my last post below, guided at Rob. ("Reply #59")

It was always BECAUSE of all the quirks and irregularities (and even bugs) in the original game  that we could come up with so many innovations, new twists etc. for so long - and they contributed a large part to why the game stayed fresh until today.

If those debatable "improvements" were only restricting our creativity for future designs it'd be bad enough - BUT there are several cases where the changes are responsible for screwing up old designs so they no longer work.... often without the resp. designer even knowing about it until someone stumbles over it.

There the real frustration starts......


Sherryl199 put it very well when we were discussing the removal of the ladderjump while testing MM2:

"Things that Vern has taken out can, perhaps, be put back in - I don't think anything in MM is an absolute or most of us would not play or design. It's beauty and fun is, in my opinion, the flexibility and responsiveness to players wishes. At least that is why I continue to play MM. The game is the MM community and reflects players' and designers' growth. Otherwise Vern would be back at MM with only 8 mansions."

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by SandyBean on 06.05.2012 at 02:10:41

Rob Seegel wrote on 04.05.2012 at 12:46:20:

SandyBean wrote on 03.05.2012 at 04:07:39:
@ Rob; thanks So Much for your input on IR, would it be too much to ask if you could convert it over to HD  (I'm not sure how) ... ONLY when and IF you have time.  If it's playable without the custom graphics, that's perfectly fine with me !  :-*


SandyBean - Immortal Ruins has been converted and added. I left the custom backgrounds because they don't do any harm and I believe it's still possible to use the backgrounds the old way, so if someone wanted to update them they could. Sorry it took longer than I expected.


Rob, Thank You So Much, for working on IR and converting it and making it available.  Seems there is so much for you to do, with all the conversions and special scenarios and I truly, truly appreciate you taking time out from this and your Life to help me  [smiley=dankk2.gif]

You guys are all so computer genius, just reading all the banter, advice and suggestions back an forth discussing resolutions to the issues is making my head swim !

Still mothering the 'mother dog', and her 10 Pups, so hoping to have time to play IR this weekend, and see how it looks   ~  Thanks Again

and take care all ....

SandyBean   [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]


Lil_Boy_sm.jpg (38 KB | 344 )

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 07.05.2012 at 00:10:36
@Brell:

You can see for yourself how it looks for me.... I'll attach a screenshot.

ForumPost-Screenshot.jpg (236 KB | 354 )

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 07.05.2012 at 00:21:16
aquamat - if it is the forum colours that is the problem you can change it. Go      Midnight Mansion Forums › User CP › Profile > Options > way down change... tempaltes I use Test 17 but most of them are the same.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 07.05.2012 at 00:46:12

aquaMat wrote on 07.05.2012 at 00:10:36:
@Brell:

You can see for yourself how it looks for me.... I'll attach a screenshot.


I use those same colors, and I don't have the same issue. Too bad your screenshot didn't show posts you did. Brell sees modify for all posts since he has Admin privileges. You should only see the modify button on your posts.  I'm still looking to see if I can tell what might be causing it.

I created a test account and tried posting here. Immediately after, I was able to modify and then delete the post with the test account.  This is going to sound ridiculous, and I hate to ask, but are you sure you were logged in at the time?

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 07.05.2012 at 17:31:35

SandyBean wrote on 06.05.2012 at 02:10:41:
Rob, Thank You So Much, for working on IR and converting it and making it available.  Seems there is so much for you to do, with all the conversions and special scenarios and I truly, truly appreciate you taking time out from this and your Life to help me  [smiley=dankk2.gif]


You're very welcome. Converting the mansions is actually pretty easy when you don't have to fiddle with graphics or any details of the mansion itself. It took me longer to upload and update the forum than it did to convert it.  I'm sure that the custom backgrounds will come with time.

One thing I neglected to do, but will do later today sometime is to do a quick check with the old builder to see if there might be something within the mansion that is broken by the new game. I believe that all of the changes have been discussed in this thread.

As I mentioned before I am seeing a little "ghosting" while I was playing part of it. It's seen where creatures walk behind certain tiles in layer 6. That appears to be an issue with the new game and I've sent Vern an email about it already.



Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 09.05.2012 at 19:56:36
@ Rob:


Rob Seegel wrote on 07.05.2012 at 00:46:12:

aquaMat wrote on 07.05.2012 at 00:10:36:
@Brell:

You can see for yourself how it looks for me.... I'll attach a screenshot.


I use those same colors, and I don't have the same issue. Too bad your screenshot didn't show posts you did. Brell sees modify for all posts since he has Admin privileges. You should only see the modify button on your posts.  I'm still looking to see if I can tell what might be causing it.

I created a test account and tried posting here. Immediately after, I was able to modify and then delete the post with the test account.  This is going to sound ridiculous, and I hate to ask, but are you sure you were logged in at the time?


Yeah, sure - I was logged in - I always keep my log-in status on "eternal" or whatever it's called - so the forum always immediately recognizes me when I drop by.

@ Rob, Brell, Rose etc.:
Though I haven't shown one of my posts in the attached screenshot I can't see the MODIFY there neither - after all that's how I discovered that it was gone (for me) - while I was trying to edit a post I had written earlier.   Of course I wouldn't want to MODIFY other people's posts.... ;D  ;)

Rose, actually I doubt that it has anything to do with the forum display colors - as Rob has said he's using the same look and also - as I said - I have been using that for several years now I think, and I am pretty sure that I already had this look when I still could MODIFY my older posts. (Probably a year ago or so.)
It was just the only thing I first could imagine to maybe be responsible for this odd behaviour.

There are other things too, BTW.
Whereas a few days ago, the size of the font displayed in THIS window (where you type your posts in before they're 'published'), was as it always was - large enough for me to read....I now suddenly have problems (even with my reading glasses on).
As usual the font size setting field right above this window has no real influence on the font size used while you type, it only influences the size which is later displayed once the post is published.

But this is only a minor problem compared to the MODIFY-issue. That one really puzzles me.....
:-/     :o    :-?

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 09.05.2012 at 20:00:06
For completion's sake:
A screenshot taken RIGHT AFTER I finished the post below.....

NewPost_ScreenSh.jpg (75 KB | 357 )

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 09.05.2012 at 20:10:14
Sorry, aquamat. I thought is was about the colour . I sometimes don't read the text as I should.  I have the option to modify my post at least!

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 09.05.2012 at 20:11:38
here is my screen shot.

Bild_2012-05-09_kl__14_02_01.png (47 KB | 313 )

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 09.05.2012 at 22:26:04
@aquamat

Still looking into it.  I'll check the code to see if that can yield any clues as to what the problem might be. Have you tried different browsers (the font issue). I was just looking at the cookies the site saves in my browser, and one or two of those looked like potential suspects.

Which browser and version are you using? I think it's unlikely that it's the browser, but you never know... Also, have you tried logging out of the forum and then logging in again?


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 10.05.2012 at 23:59:49

rose wrote on 09.05.2012 at 20:11:38:
here is my screen shot.


@ Rose:
That's exactly how it used to look for me  - say - a year ago or more.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 11.05.2012 at 00:09:43

Rob Seegel wrote on 09.05.2012 at 22:26:04:
@aquamat

Still looking into it.  I'll check the code to see if that can yield any clues as to what the problem might be. Have you tried different browsers (the font issue). I was just looking at the cookies the site saves in my browser, and one or two of those looked like potential suspects.

Which browser and version are you using? I think it's unlikely that it's the browser, but you never know... Also, have you tried logging out of the forum and then logging in again?


@Rob:

I am (still) using the same browser, Safari, although now in version 5.1.2 (since Dec 2011, after I got the MacBook). I should go to the studio and switch on the G5, running the older Safari, and check if there the MOFIFY button is still visible !!?

As for the text-size-issue:
In the meantime I found out that on the right corner right BELOW this field (in which I type the text before it is published) there is a field saying "Text size:  __ pt"  and  + / - buttons to modify the size.

So I was able to make it bigger again - but that still doesn't explain how it suddenly got to being so small, without me knowing about this feature, let alone having set it to small.
And also - it seems to switch back to small. I had set that Text Size field on 9 pt last night and now it was back to 6 pt......  whereas before it was always at least 9 pt for years and years.

However, that issue is not that problematic  - so you should not waste your valuable time on finding out anything about it !

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 11.05.2012 at 02:33:00

aquaMat wrote on 10.05.2012 at 23:59:49:

rose wrote on 09.05.2012 at 20:11:38:
here is my screen shot.


@ Rose:
That's exactly how it used to look for me  - say - a year ago or more.


As I described you can change it. I find the s-y yellow and green brown hard to read.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 11.05.2012 at 04:58:22
@aquaMat

Here's something that might be of interest - just now I logged on to a different machine, and noticed that I was also not seeing the Modify button though I was logged in (according to the top of the page).

Here's why:  I was last logged in under a differet IP address, and the forum detects that, in case it's not really you I guess, and it disables your session. Odd that it still allows you to post, and shows you as being logged in. Possibly a glitch in the software...

Anyway, near the top of the page, there's a list of tabs (Home, Help, Search, etc ). One of them is "Update Session". When I click on Update Session and fill in the requested information, the forum recreates the session, and I see the Modify button again. Perhaps, that's what happened to you, especially if you access the forum from multiple machines often.


Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 11.05.2012 at 08:10:24
@ Rob:

Sounds reasonable....  though I just now am sitting on my old computer and find that there I am also NOT seeing the MODIFY-button any longer.... even if that's the old IP-adress again ( the one I used since 2005).

So it remains a mystery...... :-/

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 11.05.2012 at 09:05:19
I think it doesn't matter which computer you use once the session has been ended. You will see the same thing. If it is what I'm thinking you will either need to update the session from the tab OR logout, then login again (from the forum). Give it a try.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 11.05.2012 at 20:20:01
If you log in from a different IP while still logged in from an original IP you have to update your session.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 13.05.2012 at 04:58:33

brell wrote on 11.05.2012 at 20:20:01:
If you log in from a different IP while still logged in from an original IP you have to update your session.

Yep - that stands as my best idea for what's affecting aquaMat, and that's even after I looked the code over. If it isn't that, then I'm not sure what it can be.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 14.05.2012 at 00:50:14

Rob Seegel wrote on 13.05.2012 at 04:58:33:

brell wrote on 11.05.2012 at 20:20:01:
If you log in from a different IP while still logged in from an original IP you have to update your session.

Yep - that stands as my best idea for what's affecting aquaMat, and that's even after I looked the code over. If it isn't that, then I'm not sure what it can be.


@ Rob & Brell:
Thanks, folks.
I'll give it a try.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 14.05.2012 at 01:02:40
Yep !   It worked !!!   :D    8-) 

Thank you both very much....!

PS: I wonder if it re-occurs, though.... as I'm still "logged in for keeps" on my other Mac, and now have re-logged-in for keeps here.
But we'll see.....

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 14.05.2012 at 03:53:06

aquaMat wrote on 14.05.2012 at 01:02:40:
Yep !   It worked !!!   :D    8-) 

Thank you both very much....!

PS: I wonder if it re-occurs, though.... as I'm still "logged in for keeps" on my other Mac, and now have re-logged-in for keeps here.
But we'll see.....

No - "logged in for keeps" is misleading. The very next time you access a page with a different IP from the one you updated the session / logged in again with, the modify button will go away again.  It will "look" as though you're logged in, for purposes of posting only. Hmm... I think I could probably fix this, but it's not not very high on my priority list - sorry. It's only a minor nuisance, really.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 18.05.2012 at 17:28:44

Rob Seegel wrote on 14.05.2012 at 03:53:06:

aquaMat wrote on 14.05.2012 at 01:02:40:
Yep !   It worked !!!   :D    8-) 

Thank you both very much....!

PS: I wonder if it re-occurs, though.... as I'm still "logged in for keeps" on my other Mac, and now have re-logged-in for keeps here.
But we'll see.....

No - "logged in for keeps" is misleading. The very next time you access a page with a different IP from the one you updated the session / logged in again with, the modify button will go away again.  It will "look" as though you're logged in, for purposes of posting only. Hmm... I think I could probably fix this, but it's not not very high on my priority list - sorry. It's only a minor nuisance, really.


Yes - indeed......  just forget it, really....    ;)

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 18.05.2012 at 17:34:58
But - wait a minute !!!

Guess what....:

Just now - after I had written "Yes indeed....forget it" (below) I saw that AGAIN - the MODIFY button has vanished !!
Even though I hadn't accessed the page from my other Mac in the meantime.....  I actually hadn't been here at all in the meantime.

So what is that - it looks as if the "re-logging in" had solved the cause for one session only - so it means that that probably wasn't what CAUSED it, initially.

It can't mean that I have to re-log in each time I come back now, does it?
I always was logged-in "for keeps" on the old Mac - and the button never vanished there.  Mmmmh.

Sorry to bring it up again - after I had said "forget it".   :D   :o    8-)

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 18.05.2012 at 17:38:27
Maybe the solution is - to follow my initial thought (see below)....  and "remove" the "logged-in for keeps" on my old Mac, but leave it on here ?!

That could solve it, I feel...?!

And it would minimize the nuisance - as I won't be logging-in here from my old machine that often in the future anyway, at least much less often than I do using this laptop.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 18.05.2012 at 18:10:28
Right now I don't have it either. Could it be you/we have it just for a short time and then we can't correct the post any longer?

I got the Modify option after I posted this message

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 18.05.2012 at 20:51:00
Rose,

no, I don't think that that's it.
I did NOT have it immediately after I had written the post.
Also I remember to be able to edit posts of mine that were written days / weeks ago.

Must be something else....

But strange to hear that it disappeared for you too !
Did you log-out in the meantime ?

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by rose on 18.05.2012 at 21:57:14
I logged out I think when I leave the forum. I get always logged in automaticaly when entering the forum. I entered by clicking in the notification mail for this thread. I didn't have any Modify. I replied and when the I posted message I got the Modify option.
D-n the font size is so small in the Reply window now, 6pt. I didn't do that!!

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 18.05.2012 at 22:01:41
aquaMat - yes removing the log in automatically from your other machine would probably help. Personally I just use the update session tab when it happens to me, since I often log in from different machines it's become pretty much automatic for me. The forums asks for a bit of info (not my password), and everything is put back.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by brell on 19.05.2012 at 00:55:41
This is very simple:

If you are logged in and then log in from a different IP while still logged in from the first one you'll have to update your session because otherwise the YaBB doesn't know which one to serve: The first or the second IP.

If you log off from the first IP and then you log in from a different IP you don't have to update your session because then the YaBB only sees you on one IP.

This has nothing to do with the "logged in for keeps" feature.  I often logged both at home and at work and then I had to update my session.  After I started logging off at home after each session I do not have to update my session when I log in at work.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by Rob Seegel on 19.05.2012 at 01:18:37

brell wrote on 19.05.2012 at 00:55:41:
This is very simple:

If you are logged in and then log in from a different IP while still logged in from the first one you'll have to update your session because otherwise the YaBB doesn't know which one to serve: The first or the second IP.

If you log off from the first IP and then you log in from a different IP you don't have to update your session because then the YaBB only sees you on one IP.

This has nothing to do with the "logged in for keeps" feature.  I often logged both at home and at work and then I had to update my session.  After I started logging off at home after each session I do not have to update my session when I log in at work.


You're right assuming that you are logging in / out all the time. Like aquaMat, I normally don't, so often just update my session.  It's easier for me. As with nearly everything, experiences and preferences may vary.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 24.05.2012 at 00:19:06

rose wrote on 18.05.2012 at 21:57:14:
D-n the font size is so small in the Reply window now, 6pt. I didn't do that!!


That same thing happened to me, too. I had complained about it somewhere else on these pages....
And the worst part:
Although there IS the small "Text size" field at the right corner below the text field, where one can change it back from 6 pt to something more readable... IT ALWAYS RE-SETS ITSELF TO SMALL - so the next time I post something it is again 6pt and my eyes are starting to hurt.

Who the hell allowed a software to boss us users around ??   ;)
We should be telling the software how to behave - not the other way 'round !

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 24.05.2012 at 00:25:42
@ Rob & brell:

Thank you both for your comments. I can see clearly now.
I'll try to log-out from my old Mac, so I then can stay logged-in from my MacBook, as I'm using that much more often.

However, that "update session" feature seems a quick + easy solution too - I have never tried that... not once in all those years.
Maybe I will try that right away now - just to see how it works.

Thanks !!

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 24.05.2012 at 00:30:05
Did "Update Session" and -boom! - MODIFY button reappeared instantly!

That was easy!  ;) 

Thanks again.

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 09.06.2012 at 21:40:56
@ Rose, brell, Rob:

Even though the MODIFY - button did re-appear for me after I had done the "Update Session" thing described by Rob & brell (see below), it had disappeared again very shortly after.

My assumption was that the reason for that was that I still was logged in from my old G5's IP address - even if I hadn't accessed the forum from there in the meantime this probably still mattered.

So I have finally logged out from the forum using my old G5 yesterday.... leaving this IP-address (my MacBook) the one that is "logged in for keeps".
BUT: Still the MODIFY button does not show!!  (I have just posted an entry in another thread).

I will try now once more to "Update (the) Session".....  maybe afterwards it finally gets back to its normal behavior ??! :-/

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 09.06.2012 at 21:42:54
Did "Update Session" and now it's there again....

.... we'll see how long it stays that way ??!!

Title: Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Post by aquaMat on 19.06.2012 at 00:46:16
.... and it's gone again !!!!

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