Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
Welcome
to the Actionsoft Forums!


New to the forums? Go ahead and register! Why register? Click here to find out the difference of being a guest and a member. After you're done, go here to learn how to start posting. Make sure you've read and agree with the rules of posting here!

The forums is run by three administrators. Read here who they are and what you may (and may not) expect from them.

Actionsoft's latest game, Midnight Mansion 2: The Haunted Hills,  includes 28 mansions. The 8 Built-in mansions have 3 difficulties along with 4 extra custom mansions. We don't have that many other custom MM2 mansions yet. Design your own custom mansion! Info below.  You can find out more about the game here.

The original Midnight Mansion game contains over 150 mansions. The 8 included mansions which have 3 difficulty levels each, and about 115 approved custom mansions which you can download here and also several freely uploaded mansions. To know the difference between these three types of mansions, click here.

Are you a creative person and thinking of designing a mansion yourself? Or want to know about how to upload it? Click here and we'll show you! You'll find guidelines for betatesters here.

News:
Midnight Mansion 2: The Haunted Hills version 1.0.2b has been released. This fixes a bug in Jasperlone Mountains Hard. Simply re-download the game, bring over your custom mansions folder from the old version and play on. All your saves and high scores will not be changed.

Midnight Mansion HD (MM1) is now available at the Mac App Store and at the Actionsoft website. A Windows version is now available.

Here is a list of downloadable MM1 HD ready custom mansions, which also work in the Windows version of the game.

The MM2 custom mansion Hanging Gardens of Babylon by Freddy/SandyBean/Josephine/brell was updated on 19. Nov 2023 to add a fourth section. Available here


  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print
Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes- (Read 36436 times)
Amplifyed
Adventurer
*
Offline


Formally known as "Sam
S."

Posts: 300
Down the hall on the 3rd right
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #30 - 25.03.2007 at 02:33:24
 
Tongue
Back to top
 

-Vintage Octopus-
 
IP Logged
 
aquaMat
Expedition Leader
***
Offline



Posts: 1159
Berlin, Germany
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #31 - 25.03.2007 at 03:22:43
 
Psychotronic, I know what room you mean...(where the path splits)...and I have suspected already this was where people missed a section. (It's room #20313, BTW)

We have talked about this during beta-testing.... as of course we saw the potential problem of people being able to head for the lower blue door first.  I considered putting up a BBB (saying 'do the red door first'), but I figured having
a)
put up coins which signal the route to the (higher) red door  and...especially

b)
the fact -(for everyone obvious to see) that the blue door section is LOWER than the red door section....and there are only falling platforms there.....  (so you can't get UP on a falling platform)

was enough indication to the player to DO THE RED SECTION first.  And it's exactly there where the yellow keys(s) fpr later are hidden !!!
I know it's not the most perfect of styles there, it could be clearer....but I thought it was obvious enough !

Your second thought..... I think you're absolutely right that giving out keys for a door that arrives in a much later section bears certain dangers.
I can't even tell you why I like to do it sometimes, other than:
I don't know why, but I have some reservations about the concept where a key should only be allowed in close vicinity to its resp. door... although I fully admit in this case it's really a very very long distance between key and door.

It's probably due to the different playing styles....  my playing style  is collecting anything (keys, money etc.) as soon as I come across it...and it never dawned on me that anybody might NOT collect a key once he spotted it, but first explores the rest of the area.... and comes back for the key later.  What advantages does that give you (other than in a case where you might be short of space for keys ('cause you have 6 shields or something) ??!

Well, I'm sorry for the inconveniance.
In the update I might put up a BBB saying "Do red section first" in the room mentioned above.
Back to top
 

Why is a carrot more orange than an orange ?
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Psychotronic
Explorer
Offline



Posts: 174
Alaska
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #32 - 25.03.2007 at 03:45:36
 
aquaMat wrote on 25.03.2007 at 03:22:43:
the fact -(for everyone obvious to see) that the blue door section is LOWER than the red door section....and there are only falling platforms there.....  (so you can't get UP on a falling platform)

was enough indication to the player to DO THE RED SECTION first.  And it's exactly there where the yellow keys(s) fpr later are hidden !!!
I know it's not the most perfect of styles there, it could be clearer....but I thought it was obvious enough !


And if this were straightforward, solid-feeling mansion, it might be obvious. But this is a tricky mansion with a lot of paths that are hidden or obscure, with lots of platforms hiding in the walls and invisible ladders. Up until that point, I had always been able to find a way back from any weird corner of the mansion I had found myself in.

My logic at that point was this: the blue key was hidden better than the other key. Therefore, the blue side was a secret path (which it is). So I had better do that part first, and then find the path back to the main section. In fact, I died in that secret section and when I rebooted my save, I went to the blue part first, AGAIN. I still didn't know that there was no way back to the other side. And then when I couldn't find a way up to the other door, it just seemed like, since I could so easily skip that part, it must be optional. I'm not looking forward to going back two whole save points to look for those keys.

Quote:
It's probably due to the different playing styles....  my playing style  is collecting anything (keys, money etc.) as soon as I come across it...and it never dawned on me that anybody might NOT collect a key once he spotted it, but first explores the rest of the area.... and comes back for the key later.  What advantages does that give you (other than in a case where you might be short of space for keys ('cause you have 6 shields or something) ??!


I collect keys whenever I see them. But you hide a lot of the keys in your mansions behind walls or sprites. That method of design encourages players to explore around, find a door, realize Jack must have passed a key for that door, and then go searching for it. Which is fine. But if you expect people to pick up those hidden keys (which includes keys that are in sections you can potentially skip entirely) on the way to a later door, then your design philosophy is clashing with your expectations on the player.

If you want Jack to collect keys as he goes, make them visible. If you want Jack to go hunting for invisible keys, don't hide them very far from the door, because he's likely to find the door first and have no idea where the key is.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ryos
Explorer
Offline


Colorado, USA

Posts: 243
Utah, USA
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #33 - 25.03.2007 at 14:24:12
 
OK...I'm still not ready to answer this post in full (and don't think I will be until I finish DoD, and that might take me a few weeks). But I have a moment now to try and explain some things.

aquaMat wrote on 23.03.2007 at 19:54:06:
Ryos
,

even back when you wrote your arguable "Sins Of The Mansion Builders" I felt you had a special disliking of my mansions......
of course I have no problem of your saying so...as long as it is on reasonable grounds and within certain confines of politeness.
To be honest... I really like a good discussion. But I'm not sure if this is one, but it might become one....


If you feel I've been unreasonable or impolite, then I apologize. That was never my intent. The language barrier is difficult (I spent two years speaking a foreign language almost exclusively, so I know how easy it can be to completely miss the spirit of what someone is saying). If you ever find yourself offended by something I've written, just remember these five words: "Ryos never means to offend." Seriously, never.

Quote:
In this case I have the feeling you already disliked the mansion after the first couple of rooms, judged by the speed of your post....
I'm not sure why, though.


Heh, prejudice is an ugly thing, and I completely prejudged DoD based on the negative experience I'd had playing "Mind Mines" and, to a lesser extent, SPoG. Sorry, that wasn't fair of me, and I am giving the mansion a fair chance.

I hope to try and explain why I don't like the style of your mansions, but first I have to figure that out myself. Right now all I can say is that I don't enjoy them, but that's an emotion that I haven't finished analyzing. I may come to appreciate them, like some works of art can only be appreciated and not enjoyed.

Quote:
Why don't you see it  (what you call "devious and unfair traps") as a challenge.... as I do.

'Cause unfair is something that is "not right" or "unjust".... which is definitely neither what I had in mind, not what I have actiually done.

You're right on the definition of unfair, and it's instructive then to consider what "unfair" is in the context of Midnight Mansion. And to try and do that, I'll invoke a concept I read in a book about writing stories by Orson Scott Card (Characters and Viewpoint).

While I don't have my copy at hand (it's 500 miles away), I'll paraphrase as best I can. Authors have an
implicit contract
with their readers. As part of the contract, readers agree to suspend their disbelief and expect in return that the author will present a story that is believable and consistent. Should the author ever fail to uphold his end of the deal (by, say, having a character do something that he wouldn't do for no reason), the reader will rightly feel cheated and may stop reading altogether.

Let's carry this concept to Midnight Mansion and assume that an implicit contract exists between mansion builder and mansion player. What would be the builder's end of the contract?

...well, of course that's open to interpretation, and mine can be summed up like this: when I die, I want it to be my fault. The mansion builder has the implicit responsibility to make sure that the player can only kill himself, instead of being killed by the mansion. "To act, and not be acted upon."

Another part of the implicit contract is that the mansion should never become unfinishable. That's what we call a Jack-stuck. I suppose it's reasonable to use this as part of the design of a mansion, but you better darn well do it on purpose and make sure the player knows what happened.

If you violate the implicit contract...IMHO...that's unfair!

Now, I'm not prepared to give specific examples of DoD violating the implicit contract. Sorry...please have patience with me.  Cool

Quote:
Just because I have the principle of hiding (some) secrets more than others, doesn't make me u nfair..... there is still almost always a hint somewhere...even if it's not the "usual" hint (of using crooked bricks, for example). We've discussed that one before.


Your hints in DoD are almost uniformly ingenious. What I initially took exception to was the fact that the path forward is quite frequently hidden. This is a major departure from all other mansions out there and it threw me for a loop. But it is used often and well enough that I began to look at it like a puzzle, and I now think it is the mansion's greatest quality (and possibly its saving grace).

Quote:
I have tried to avoid really cheap deaths and I think I managed to do so.
And just because a mansion is HARD doesn't make it UNFAIR. I can't begin to tell you how many times I had to replay the same sections of ACO time and again, 'cause they were so unbelievingly hard...to a point where I felt it was....well... a bit unfair that it's so hard. Yet I realise it's just very hard...and I never would accuse Psychotronic of unfairness....and haven't heard anybody else do so either.

I never said it was unfair because it was hard. You're putting words in my mouth.

Quote:
So tell me..... where do I penalize you for leaving a room....?
Why do you feel I "force you to search for hidden cclues in order to continue"...when this is simply part of the game, a challenge..... just a means to make it more interesting (even in repeated plays).


Sorry...examples forthcoming. Wink

Quote:
As I said before: DoD is designed in a way so you cannot find all secrets during your first game.....  why don't you see it like I do, as a positive thing, that you can actually play it more than once and still find new things.


I don't believe I ever complained about the way secrets are hidden, just that the path ahead was a secret, which I addressed above.

Quote:
If you don't like that style....why don't you play  -say- The Swiss Mansion Easy, where you get a basic, simple, straightforward gameplay that you can finish in 10 minutes.


WEE-OOO-WEE-OOO! Ad hom alert! Help, help, I'm being repressed! Grin

No, seriously, that reads like a personal attack and is quite offensive. One of my favorite mansions, Temple of the Moon, is mind-blowingly difficult.

But hey, I hadn't tried the Swiss Mansion. Maybe I'll have to, as hard mansions, while enjoyable, take considerable time commitment that I don't always have to give them. Sometimes all I need is a simple, straightforward, relaxing 10 minutes. Smiley

Quote:
If you do not consider this fun...well.... then maybe you simply have a different taste...... I can't please everyone...and I never set out to try.


Oh, good heavens, who can please everyone? It's pointless to try. And if it were just that your mansions aren't for me, then I would never say anything (like I've never complained about House of Wonders, which is most definitely just not for me). It goes deeper then that; I have the hubris to think that my opinions will help you design better mansions, ones that I might enjoy playing (and others enjoy more). That's all.

But before I type another word, let me ask: do you want my feedback? I ask because you act like you don't. Don't hesitate to say no, I won't be offended.

According to the character counter, this post is...7348 characters! Yikes! ryos shuts up now.  Lips Sealed
Back to top
 

"Fun game: try to post a YouTube comment so stupid that people realize you must be joking.  (Hint: this is impossible)" -Randall Munroe
 
IP Logged
 
ryos
Explorer
Offline


Colorado, USA

Posts: 243
Utah, USA
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #34 - 25.03.2007 at 14:42:16
 
Oh, and on a lighter note...I need a hint! Tongue

I'm in room 21104 with
no keys!
The horror! The humanity! I did take your hint and play the red door first (like Psychotronic, I had thought the blue door was a secret area that I'd miss if I hit the red door first), but I only found one yellow key. And I'm also out of blue keys, and can't find anything more in any area that I can reach.

I'm just looking for a hint here. For the sake of my sanity, is there some way out of this mess? Or do I have to go all the way back to save point 2 (from 5), and find more keys?

THANKS!
Back to top
 

"Fun game: try to post a YouTube comment so stupid that people realize you must be joking.  (Hint: this is impossible)" -Randall Munroe
 
IP Logged
 
Psychotronic
Explorer
Offline



Posts: 174
Alaska
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #35 - 25.03.2007 at 14:49:17
 
Quote:
Let's carry this concept to Midnight Mansion and assume that an implicit contract exists between mansion builder and mansion player. What would be the builder's end of the contract?

...well, of course that's open to interpretation, and mine can be summed up like this: when I die, I want it to be my fault. The mansion builder has the implicit responsibility to make sure that the player can only kill himself, instead of being killed by the mansion. "To act, and not be acted upon."

Another part of the implicit contract is that the mansion should never become unfinishable. That's what we call a Jack-stuck. I suppose it's reasonable to use this as part of the design of a mansion, but you better darn well do it on purpose and make sure the player knows what happened.

If you violate the implicit contract...IMHO...that's unfair!


This is how I think of it, too. It feels like there's an implicit trust that exists between me and the level architect when I play a new mansion. I trust that the mansion won't kill me without giving me a reasonable chance to defend myself. I trust that the mansion difficulty won't vary wildly without warning. I trust that walls will act like walls and ladders will act like ladders and backgrounds will be backgrounds, that there will be some consistent rules and physics, so I can relax and work on the challenges that I encounter. There's sort of a trial period at the beginning where the contract gets established. And it's very easy during that trial period for the level design to break that trust, and it can be very hard to get me back in the mood again afterwards.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
aquaMat
Expedition Leader
***
Offline



Posts: 1159
Berlin, Germany
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #36 - 26.03.2007 at 00:36:14
 
ryos wrote on 25.03.2007 at 14:42:16:
Oh, and on a lighter note...I need a hint! Tongue

I'm in room 21104 with
no keys!
The horror! The humanity! I did take your hint and play the red door first (like Psychotronic, I had thought the blue door was a secret area that I'd miss if I hit the red door first), but I only found one yellow key. And I'm also out of blue keys, and can't find anything more in any area that I can reach.

I'm just looking for a hint here. For the sake of my sanity, is there some way out of this mess? Or do I have to go all the way back to save point 2 (from 5), and find more keys?

THANKS!


Easy things first,
ryos
...that's why I reply on this one first and only later (hopefully) I'll find the time to address the larger post.

So I reckon you're in front of the blue & yellow doors in 21104 ?! And you have no keys whatsoever ??  But you did take the red door oart at the above mentioed intersection.... there you found 1 yellow key, you said. Well, I don't know (off the top of my head) whether the 2nd yellow key is within the "red door section" as well, or BEFORE that...but I'll check.

If you haven't found a blue key, I recommend: go back a few rooms (from 21104) and look again.... I'm sure you'll find it.

Let me get back to you about the 2nd yellow key.
Back to top
 

Why is a carrot more orange than an orange ?
WWW  
IP Logged
 
aquaMat
Expedition Leader
***
Offline



Posts: 1159
Berlin, Germany
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #37 - 26.03.2007 at 01:00:03
 
Psychotronic wrote on 25.03.2007 at 03:45:36:
And if this were straightforward, solid-feeling mansion, it might be obvious. But this is a tricky mansion with a lot of paths that are hidden or obscure, with lots of platforms hiding in the walls and invisible ladders. Up until that point, I had always been able to find a way back from any weird corner of the mansion I had found myself in.

My logic at that point was this: the blue key was hidden better than the other key. Therefore, the blue side was a secret path (which it is). So I had better do that part first, and then find the path back to the main section. In fact, I died in that secret section and when I rebooted my save, I went to the blue part first, AGAIN. I still didn't know that there was no way back to the other side. And then when I couldn't find a way up to the other door, it just seemed like, since I could so easily skip that part, it must be optional. I'm not looking forward to going back two whole save points to look for those keys.


There you certainly have a point.... I'll admit that in DoD the player can have the impression that things are a bit differently or pretty much anything is possible....so normal "reasoning" probably can't be counted upon.
However..... I still don't understand the logic of "skipping" the red section, or why you believed it could be less important than the blue side.

To cut a long story short.... I will definitely try to do something about the situation in the next UD.
Maybe I should have sticked to how I had it done in one of the beta versions (albeit only very shortly): where I had simply hidden the blue key inside the red section.... so anybody coming to that "crossing" MUST take the red door, 'cause he simply doesn't have the blue key. (the only reason why I didn't stick to that method was: I liked the initial hiding place of the blue key so much   Wink

Psychotronic wrote on 25.03.2007 at 03:45:36:
If you want Jack to collect keys as he goes, make them visible. If you want Jack to go hunting for invisible keys, don't hide them very far from the door, because he's likely to find the door first and have no idea where the key is.


Again you have a point...  BUT:  I made clear in the introductory text for DoD, that in this mansion players should be alert at all times...and especially go looking for things even where they least expect them. And that OF COURSE includes that it's not very advisable to skip an entire section... although I understand how it happened and why you did it.

Apart from that I don't quite understand why you're "not looking forward to going back to look for those keys"... is it really so terrible, after you realized you missed an entire section in a mansion, to go back and be able to explore a whole series of new rooms you haven't seen before ?

I consider that more fun than - say - searching the same section of House Of Wonders (to just name 1 example) time and again to find out in which succession I have to open the hundreds of multi-colored doors and to find the resp. keys for them !!
(Note: this is iby NO MEANS meant as a negative statement on HOW.... it's just an example of a mansion I had to replay often).

After all that's one of the main joys of MM: visiting rooms for the very first time ! (At least for me...!)
Back to top
 

Why is a carrot more orange than an orange ?
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Psychotronic
Explorer
Offline



Posts: 174
Alaska
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #38 - 26.03.2007 at 03:20:12
 
aquaMat wrote on 26.03.2007 at 01:00:03:
There you certainly have a point.... I'll admit that in DoD the player can have the impression that things are a bit differently or pretty much anything is possible....so normal "reasoning" probably can't be counted upon.
However..... I still don't understand the logic of "skipping" the red section, or why you believed it could be less important than the blue side.


At that point, I didn't know I was skipping anything. My choice was between going back to an old save point so I could do the red section first, or forging ahead and hoping that the road would eventually lead back to the part I missed. I never load up an old save on my first time through a mansion, unless I lose all my my lives. That first time, I'm just there to play around and explore a new mansion, not to gut the thing looking for every secret. For all I knew, the red section was just as optional as the blue section.

Quote:
Again you have a point...  BUT:  I made clear in the introductory text for DoD, that in this mansion players should be alert at all times...and especially go looking for things even where they least expect them. And that OF COURSE includes that it's not very advisable to skip an entire section... although I understand how it happened and why you did it.


Don't misunderstand me. Most of the time in this mansion, things work out pretty well. I'll reach a dead end, realize I need to hunt around for some secret key of lever or passageway, and find it nearby. It's just this one case, really, where the keys were hidden so far from the door that it became a problem.

Quote:
Apart from that I don't quite understand why you're "not looking forward to going back to look for those keys"... is it really so terrible, after you realized you missed an entire section in a mansion, to go back and be able to explore a whole series of new rooms you haven't seen before ?


Yes, because I know I'll have to do a bunch of rooms again that I've already done. And that's not a problem in some mansions, but it is in others. The difference is subtle, and I have trouble explaining it, but there's something that kept me coming back over and over to get all the secrets in Nightmare Mansion and Spider Palace, (Although it didn't take many tries to get all the secrets in Spider Palace, I still kept coming back to it to get all the treasure again.) and kept me from ever wanting to explore Cathedral Towers again. Or Knight Mansion, although I liked that one the first time through.

The best mansions, in my opinion, let me get better at them. The massive tower that seemed so daunting at the beginning seems weak and kittenish once I've conquered it. And once I've gotten to that point, I can zip around the mansion fairly easily, ferreting out all its secrets, solving the occasional challenging bit, looking for every last bit of treasure. But if the mansion is asking me to pull a bunch of levers or make precise jumps in pretty much every room, it's not fun any more to look for the secrets, because I'm spending all my time solving puzzles that I've already solved.

If I'm replaying DoD, I'm going to have to go behind a whole bunch of walls to get keys. And I know where they are now, but I have to go get them anyway. I don't need them for a secret. I just need them to continue in the mansion. But despite the fact that I know where they are and I need them to get back to the part where I already was before I restarted my game, those keys are still hidden, and I have to go behind that wall to get them. It feels silly and weird to me, like the mansion is being coy or taunting me or something.

Um...long answer to a short question. But it has to do with the replayability of the mansion, too, so I hope it's helpful.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
aquaMat
Expedition Leader
***
Offline



Posts: 1159
Berlin, Germany
Gender: male
Re: Discotheque of Doom  -Release Notes-
Reply #39 - 26.03.2007 at 18:06:28
 
It's so many things / posts to answer now...I don't know where to begin. Therefore I'll answer the most important, and might be forgetting a few others....but below you'll find out that last night I have made un update that changes some important issues you have reported.

But first I'll answer a few earlier posts:

@Ryos:

Of course I always like to get feedback. And I also like to hear from you.
Only what I don't like (and what I'm sure doesn't help much) is getting such a negative, biased post (like your first one) a mere day after the release of a mansion I spent more than 3 months (!) creating from someone who admitted he hadn't played more than a handful of rooms.
'Cause that only has the effect to influence (or even put off) other people who might otherwise have enjoyed the mansion... it might lead them to believe anything would be terribly wrong with it and maybe they're reluctant to try it out. Esspecially when it's the first post after the release.
(You see I have problems finding the right words..).

But you already apologized for that.

BTW, when I said "why don't you play Swiss Mansion..." it was really not meant as an offensive statement at all (it probably came out sounding sharper than I had attended, I don't know).... no, I really meant it as a suggestion (having had the impression that style probably suited your taste more).... and even if it was a bit polemic (does this word exist in English ?) it certainly wasn't meant as an offense.

And maybe I misunderstood you there..... but I had had the impression you were complaining about the way secrets were hidden and the difficulty of DoD, even if not expressively so.  If that's not the case I apologize for the misunderstanding.

@Psychotronic:

I understand you better now.... your remarks have been helpful.

And to everybody:

I have completed a major update of DoD (called it DoD 2.0, if Freddy goes along with that) which irons out a few of the things you have reported, including:

- the blue key (for the blue section) is now WITHIN the red section, plus
- red and blue sections have been marked with a big 1 and 2, respectively to further indicate the "running order"
- a few other keys have been put into new places, less hidden and / or later in the game, including the yellow key needed in room 21104 (which is now in close proximity to its resp. door)
- backtracking in room 21506 is now possible (although a squirrel jump is needed).
- the other JS (room #21712) is now 'repaired'
- somewhere along the way (after a pole that doesn't allow backtracking) a "reserve yellow key" has been hidden, for those players who might have missed an earlier hidden yellow key. (Unfortunately those who find all keys will have a surplus yellow key in the last room...so another imperfection.

If these issues have troubled you before, I have to apologise...but I have to say that none of the beta-testers (which include 2 of my colleagues here, that I had turned on to MM) had ever reported that yellow key issue.... probably they all managed to find all keys so never arrived in front of those blue/yellow doors without a key.  However brell mentioned the risk of players taking the blue section first, after which I had experimented with moving the blue key to within the red section (but unfortunately didn't stick to it.)

I just sent the updates to the admins....and hopefully it's downloadable later today.  Please wait until then....and I'm sure the whole thing is much clearer and you'll enjoy playing more.  Wink

(Sorry...got rather longwinded...)
Back to top
 

Why is a carrot more orange than an orange ?
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print