Midnight Mansion Forums - At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...

Rob Seegel

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #50 - 03.05.2012 at 10:44:37

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:16:30:

Here I am afraid I'd be guilty - simply BECAUSE I am so keen on graphic details I used to plant each individual brick by hand most of the time - and I am sure there might be enough situations where I used both types next to each other.... but when I did, I did that exactly FOR the "irregularity effect" - and I always double checked how it looked. It always looked great in the original game..... but I have no idea how it will "translate" into the HD-version...!?!

I wouldn't worry too much about this too much. It took me a while to see what Vern was talking about. Once I did, I started seeing it everywhere. It was pretty rough going in Knight Mansion and Spider Palace though. I had to redo a few screens in early sections that had all of these intricate weaving patterns in the stonework. Not fun.

but I can smile now looking back on it.

One thing that's interesting about the dynamic brick coloring is that it's generated each time go from room to room, regardless of how many times you visit the room. Pay close attention to when you leave a screen, then return - if you look carefully you'll see the color patterns shift and change each time you visit the same room. It's a very striking effect, but a little distracting once you start to notice it.

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Rob Seegel

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #51 - 03.05.2012 at 10:53:27

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:22:17:

Sorry for replying to some of your posts a bit randomly (= not in the order you have sent them....) though I had started w/ the earliest one below..... this is one of your latest ones:

Rob Seegel wrote on 02.05.2012 at 20:48:18:

aquaMat - I made an attempt at re-creating a few of your custom graphics so that they blend in with MM HD. I created ones that were reused in a few mansions, and were based on existing game graphics so they weren't too bad to do.

The email bounced when I tried to send them, though. It's not as though there were that many images or they were particularly large.

Wow, fantastic - good to hear that !!
BUT: What do you mean when you say 'the email bounced when (you) tried to send them' ?? Did you try to send them to me or where ?

I sent the email, and got a response saying that the server had rejected it. I'll try again, and put the images in a zip file.

I was going to volunteer to help you out. I could work on those graphics which were based on existing graphics. Obviously you'd have final say on any graphic and could modify anything I provide as you see fit. I'd be absolutely fine with that. The idea would be to help you do whatever is necessary to get your mansions converted. This would leave you free to work on those graphics that are based on images that only you have (maybe), or would leave you to choose others. Mostly, I'm talking about images in picture frames here.

Even with my help, there would still be a good amount of work to do.

I've also been working on the lever graphics. All the levers would have to be moved back up. However, we'd use different images for those layers so it would look as though they were poking up through slots in the ground - not so different from how it looked before. The nice thing is that the new levers could be reused through-out all your machines if you wished.

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Rob Seegel

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #52 - 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:59:37:

2. As for those levers: wouldn't it be easiest to convince Vern to either UNDO his lever 'improvement' to how it used to be (= allowing levers to be buried and still work) OR at least - like some of the other improved / changed features - make it choosable for the designer (on a per-mansion basis) whether the mansion in question allows levers to be buried or not ??

You could try, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. Why? It's not a wide-spread issue. It's focused on only your mansions. There are a lot, admittedly, but still a small number overall in the total number. Keep in mind, the change wasn't done to specifically mess up your mansions. We (the testers) only realized that after the fact.

- Here are other things affected: gold/silver block lever jumps: Times when Jack pulls a lever that toggles the blocks from silver to gold. The way it used to be, Jack would get a last jump even if the block underneath him changed. Vern didn't care for that - and never has. I actually like that effect. The silver/gold blocks are one of my favorite elements in the game, and I like(d) this trick. I believe this was *one* of the things he wanted to prevent.

- I'm not sure if it's possible to pull a lever that is suspended in space from a moving (or falling) platform passing by. I think it isn't.

- There was at least one other case where a Jack managed to move a lever while leaping mid-air and I think it resulted in a bizarre situation. Well, not any more.

Fixing these and possibly other issues related to the levers took time, and a few attempts if I recall correctly. When it was pointed out that the buried levers didn't work, Vern seemed regretful, but more along the lines that he had ever allowed it, not that he was considering changing it back. That's how I remember it anyway.

Quote:

A potential (although less 'funny') alternative would be to simply add another lever-design to the catalog of sprites, one which simply does NOT have a base at all.... so when used would look almost like the buried ones. (I say 'almost' and 'less funny' because it wouldn't really look buried since it'll probably be just as long as the ones with bases.....whereas the buried ones are 1 unit shorter in size).

I think this is the right way to proceed personally, because it gets you the effect you desire without having to wait for a programming fix which is unlikely to come. I've already started reworking the graphics. The effect might be easier that what you think. I created a selection in the graphic around the levers, then I moved the selection down so that the bases were out of site - the same thing you did from within the game. Then I add on a "slot" for the levers so it will look like the levers are coming out of the "ground". The levers end up without a base, and lower, as they look when you shift them below the ground. I can finish up these images. As for the green base that gets superimposed. I modified it so that the entire image is transparent. As I said, I think this is the right way to go. What do you think?

Quote:

BTW: In one of my hardest mansions, JUMP!, I even came up with the "upside-down - lever", which is hanging from the ceiling and can still be pulled by Jack. I was very proud of that..... and I bet my a#s this will definitely not work any longer, right ?!
[quote]

Hmm... I'd have to see it. I don't remember. It *might* work. No sense wondering. It would be better to check to be sure.

[quote]
3. As for the use of custom graphics in my mansions:
Indeed, if I remember correctly, the mansions where I really used several custom graphics, aren't all that many.
There are a lot of mansions where I didn't use any custom graphics at all, and several where I only slightly changed the look of Jack.

Yes, your custom graphics have many things going for them that make it easier than it otherwise would have been.

Quote:

There are a few though, like DoD, where the custom graphics are essential to the gaming experience and/or the theme of the mansion. In DoD for example you have custom BBBs (including custom 70s-style text boards that appear when you activate / read a BBB), you have custom paintings and other disco-related design objects, including dancers etc. Most important are probably the changed bricks, platforms etc. But in most later mansions (say from 2008 onward) I rather tried to work with the tools (sprites, bricks etc.) we're given and (ab-)use and/or conform them for my purpose than use too much custom graphics.

I would save DoD for last. It also uses some common graphics. The others will go quickly I think. You can take your time with DoD later. I think making slight changes to existing graphics was a very wise way to go, myself.

Quote:

Some mansions feature both approaches, like THE FOUR TUBES, which does include 1 sort of custom bricks (lemon-colored), several custom paintings and maybe 1 or 2 other custom-bits. That should be manageable.....

Yeah, I agree based on what I've looked at.

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Rob Seegel YaBB Administrator Offline Posts: 740 Baltimore, MD Gender:	Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me... Reply #53 - 03.05.2012 at 12:38:21 @SandyBean I've got the mansion all ready to go, but ran out of time tonight. Sorry I'll make sure it goes out tomorrow. It was a long day...
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Olle the Greatest

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #54 - 03.05.2012 at 18:28:29

Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

You could try, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. Why? It's not a wide-spread issue. It's focused on only your mansions. There are a lot, admittedly, but still a small number overall in the total number. Keep in mind, the change wasn't done to specifically mess up your mansions. We (the testers) only realized that after the fact.

- Here are other things affected: gold/silver block lever jumps: Times when Jack pulls a lever that toggles the blocks from silver to gold. The way it used to be, Jack would get a last jump even if the block underneath him changed. Vern didn't care for that - and never has. I actually like that effect. The silver/gold blocks are one of my favorite elements in the game, and I like(d) this trick. I believe this was *one* of the things he wanted to prevent.

I too use buried levers in some of my mansions (Luris for instance) and think they're a lot better looking than unburied

On the other hand I don't see the silver/gold-jumps not working, just played pompomrouge and had to do just that to make it through

Another thing though which doesn't work (I mentioned this when playing resort for retired gold hunters I think) is the appearing/disappearing platforms not being synced when Jack jumps from one room to another. The platforms are always off when Jack enters a room, making some rooms unplayable since he falls to his death

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Rob Seegel

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #55 - 03.05.2012 at 21:33:49

Olle the Greatest wrote on 03.05.2012 at 18:28:29:

I too use buried levers in some of my mansions (Luris for instance) and think they're a lot better looking than unburied

OK - to each their own, I guess. I need to go back and look at the posts for MM HD testing to see why it was changed. I can see that burying it was an easy way to get rid of the base. I liked that it was smaller, but I think it looks a little strange sticking out behind the 3D block. I was working at modifying the graphic last night, and I think the change looks at least as good, if not better. It feels strange defending the change because I didn't feel strongly about it one way or another - still don't. I'd probably feel differently if I'd made several mansions where it was buried.

There's no harm in asking Vern about it - nothing ventured, nothing gained - right? Maybe he will change it back. Just because I think it's unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible. It may take a while for him to respond though. The last email I got from him mentioned he was a little behind on his email. He's normally pretty busy, but he's dealing with some personal issue.

He has said on occasion that if a behavior wasn't shown working a certain way in a tutorial or help, then it shouldn't be relied on and a player shouldn't be expected to know how to do it. My personal feeling about the buried lever is that the reason people do it is tied to aesthetics - nothing more. If a designer what's to change the look of something then there is a way of making that happen. I'll make the modifications to the levers available if you'd like to use them. It should give you the look you want, while preserving the behavior Vern wants (whatever the reason). Seems like a reasonable way forward to me.

On the other hand I don't see the silver/gold-jumps not working, just played pompomrouge and had to do just that to make it through

Huh. I'm not sure, I *thought* this was disabled as well. Maybe not in custom mansions. I don't know. I recall it being an issue during testing.

Another thing though which doesn't work (I mentioned this when playing resort for retired gold hunters I think) is the appearing/disappearing platforms not being synced when Jack jumps from one room to another. The platforms are always off when Jack enters a room, making some rooms unplayable since he falls to his death

Yeah. I knew about this one. Here's what Vern said about it initially:

Quote:

The reasoning is that designers can, for future mansions, rely on specific timing of the platforms, knowing that when the player enters a room, the platforms will always be starting at the same value. So they can put skeleton fish, spiders, or other obstacles in the room along with the disappearing floors, knowing that the timing will always be the same each time the player enters the room.

Since this would be a good improvement for the game, I'm wondering how many custom mansions would be messed up if the game is left as-is, and would it be hard to fix them?

In the end, he ended up compromising. The thick ghost platforms (as Brell calls them), or lightsaber platforms (as Vern calls them) were left unchanged I think. The thin ghost platforms (as Brell calls them) or retractable platforms (as I call them) were modified so that when Jack enters a room they are are always invisible to start with.

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brell

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #56 - 04.05.2012 at 00:54:01

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 10:24:42:

One other question:

I can very well remember that there always used to be the possibility to later (re-)edit one of my own posts after it had already been published (e.g. when you detect an error or typo days later etc.)..... but somehow I can't find that EDIT button any longer.

Has it vanished or am I completely sitting on my eyes now ?
Embarrassed

I have found at least two typos in earlier posts of mine I'd like to correct.

Hmm... don't you see a "modify" button in the upper right corner of each post?

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brell

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #57 - 04.05.2012 at 00:59:08

Olle the Greatest wrote on 03.05.2012 at 18:28:29:

On the other hand I don't see the silver/gold-jumps not working, just played pompomrouge and had to do just that to make it through

Another thing though which doesn't work (I mentioned this when playing resort for retired gold hunters I think) is the appearing/disappearing platforms not being synced when Jack jumps from one room to another. The platforms are always off when Jack enters a room, making some rooms unplayable since he falls to his death

Silver/gold-jump DO work in custom mansions but not the included ones.

I checked the Resort and made a very few changes to assure that Jack can jump between rooms and land safely on the thick ghost platform (needs timing). I however did not make any changes in one of the gray rooms (with a thin platform) because after Vern's change the room is actually harder Smiley

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brell

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #58 - 04.05.2012 at 01:02:37

One more thing - since we are discussing som of the changes Vern made in MM HD:

I've said it before and I'll say it again that MM is Vern's game and it is totally up to him how he wants to present his game to us, the customers. I, however, feel that his changes are not improving anything and in some instances they are reducing my innovativity as a builder.

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aquaMat

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Re: At last! Discotheque Of Doom ins running for me...
Reply #59 - 04.05.2012 at 05:53:15

@ Rob:

First of all, thank you so much for taking so much time to discuss all those issues here at length and even trying out / preparing things in the meantime. I really appreciate that.

Answers / comments to your thoughts below in-between the quotes.
(Again I answer your posts randomly, starting with this one):

Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

aquaMat wrote on 03.05.2012 at 09:59:37:

2. As for those levers: wouldn't it be easiest to convince Vern to either UNDO his lever 'improvement' to how it used to be (= allowing levers to be buried and still work) OR at least - like some of the other improved / changed features - make it choosable for the designer (on a per-mansion basis) whether the mansion in question allows levers to be buried or not ??

You could try, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. Why? It's not a wide-spread issue. It's focused on only your mansions. There are a lot, admittedly, but still a small number overall in the total number. Keep in mind, the change wasn't done to specifically mess up your mansions. We (the testers) only realized that after the fact.

- Here are other things affected: gold/silver block lever jumps: Times when Jack pulls a lever that toggles the blocks from silver to gold. The way it used to be, Jack would get a last jump even if the block underneath him changed. Vern didn't care for that - and never has. I actually like that effect. The silver/gold blocks are one of my favorite elements in the game, and I like(d) this trick. I believe this was *one* of the things he wanted to prevent.

I also always liked it.

Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

- I'm not sure if it's possible to pull a lever that is suspended in space from a moving (or falling) platform passing by. I think it isn't.

- There was at least one other case where a Jack managed to move a lever while leaping mid-air and I think it resulted in a bizarre situation. Well, not any more.

Fixing these and possibly other issues related to the levers took time, and a few attempts if I recall correctly. When it was pointed out that the buried levers didn't work, Vern seemed regretful, but more along the lines that he had ever allowed it, not that he was considering changing it back. That's how I remember it anyway.

Yes, I can very well imagine that. Without wanting to step on his toes, I know that Vern doesn't care too much for all the experimental quirks (including abusing bugs etc.) that we designers came up with....and although I can understand his point of view, I always felt he tends to forget that this aspect is exactly what kept the game and this community alive and vibrant for so long. Imagine all custom mansions would have looked like variations of - say -Nightmare Mansion, with no innovations, no stretching of the boundaries, no weirdness at all..... I doubt it would have been as exiting as it was / is for all those years.
I think this applies to all (art) forms BTW, music (my main profession) being a prime example: everything that is too perfect tends to get boring quickly..... so let's leave enough imperfections in to keep it a bit rough !

Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

Quote:

A potential (although less 'funny') alternative would be to simply add another lever-design to the catalog of sprites, one which simply does NOT have a base at all.... so when used would look almost like the buried ones. (I say 'almost' and 'less funny' because it wouldn't really look buried since it'll probably be just as long as the ones with bases.....whereas the buried ones are 1 unit shorter in size).

I think this is the right way to proceed personally, because it gets you the effect you desire without having to wait for a programming fix which is unlikely to come. I've already started reworking the graphics. The effect might be easier that what you think. I created a selection in the graphic around the levers, then I moved the selection down so that the bases were out of site - the same thing you did from within the game. Then I add on a "slot" for the levers so it will look like the levers are coming out of the "ground". The levers end up without a base, and lower, as they look when you shift them below the ground. I can finish up these images. As for the green base that gets superimposed. I modified it so that the entire image is transparent. As I said, I think this is the right way to go. What do you think?

I agree - sounds like a good solution !

Rob Seegel wrote on 03.05.2012 at 11:32:00:

Quote:

BTW: In one of my hardest mansions, JUMP!, I even came up with the "upside-down - lever", which is hanging from the ceiling and can still be pulled by Jack. I was very proud of that..... and I bet my a#s this will definitely not work any longer, right ?!

Hmm... I'd have to see it. I don't remember. It *might* work. No sense wondering. It would be better to check to be sure.

(…)

Quote:

There are a few though, like DoD, where the custom graphics are essential to the gaming experience and/or the theme of the mansion. In DoD for example you have custom BBBs (including custom 70s-style text boards that appear when you activate / read a BBB), you have custom paintings and other disco-related design objects, including dancers etc. Most important are probably the changed bricks, platforms etc. But in most later mansions (say from 2008 onward) I rather tried to work with the tools (sprites, bricks etc.) we're given and (ab-)use and/or conform them for my purpose than use too much custom graphics.

I would save DoD for last. It also uses some common graphics. The others will go quickly I think. You can take your time with DoD later. I think making slight changes to existing graphics was a very wise way to go, myself.

That's exactly what I had thought.

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